Corey Allan: I always appreciate the opportunities to catch up with my guest today, Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fyfe. I'm going to call you a friend, not just a colleague now because we've known each other quite a bit. So how you been, girl? It's been a while since I've seen you. But I wanted to have a conversation because one of the things I keep coming across, and I know part of your work helped me frame this too, is the whole concept of attraction and desire.

jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: when you talk about just the iteration of a relationship and how it goes through the years. Because obviously

jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: I think most people would agree when it starts, it's easy.

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: If there's an attraction there, it's easy. If it's not

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: an attraction, it's a quick lived relationship. But inevitably

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: it seems like a relationship hit that phase of where did it all go? What happened?

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Now I'm not attracted as like I used to be or the desire has gone. or

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: things have shifted. And I just wanted to pick your brain and have a dialogue about what's going on here. You know, what's

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: this whole thing going on and how do we navigate it well?

jennifer: Good. And maybe I'll work out some of my own thoughts as we talk about it.

Corey Allan: Well, you and me both, girl. So,

jennifer: Yeah, exactly.

Corey Allan: because

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: one of the things I got from you was, I believe, is Terry Riel's framework of the love without knowledge, knowledge without

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: love that then spins into the ultimate goal of love with knowledge.

jennifer: Knowledge,

Corey Allan: And so

jennifer: yes.

Corey Allan: let's unpack that real quick, because some people might be unfamiliar with it.

jennifer: Yeah, well, so, yeah, Terry Real talks about, I trained with Terry sort of in the beginning of my work and I think he writes about it also in his book. Oh, I suddenly can't think of the name. I'll think of it in a second. But

Corey Allan: No problem.

jennifer: he talks about three phases of a relationship, right? As you talked about love without knowledge, knowledge without love and knowing love or love with knowledge. So in the love without knowledge is that, phase of falling in love. And it's driven by, you know, just ton of dopamine floods the brain. It feels amazing. We feel this attraction and resonance and

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: desire that is happening to us. And we're not really choosing it. In fact, sometimes it's very inconvenient, you know, because it just kind of comes out of nowhere and there it is and you feel it. And some people dismiss this phase or they marry somebody that they don't ever have that with, which creates its own troubles, which we could talk about if we want to. But I think there's a strong biological component to this, at least according to, I heard John Gottman speak about this one. So I don't know specifically what research he was referencing, if it was his own or others, but about how there's a percentage of people that we will feel like a visceral, a small percentage of people that will feel like a visceral attraction to.

Corey Allan: Okay.

jennifer: and others that we will not. And I think, you know, there's something to do with like different pheromones and biology and we tend to be attracted to people that our kids will have a stronger immune system, right? So there's some elements we tend to be attracted. If you look at wedding announcements, I think often people look like they could be siblings. So there's

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: a familial element to it also, which I think is

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: like the people you've loved tended to look like this

Corey Allan: Yeah, don't we often go like goes after like in a lot of ways and

jennifer: Yeah,

Corey Allan: you know,

jennifer: often.

Corey Allan: it makes sense to us and how they look, how they

jennifer: Yes,

Corey Allan: operate, where they live,

jennifer: that's

Corey Allan: etc.

jennifer: right. It's intuitive. It's intuitive. Like I remember when I first met my husband, like I had this feeling like, like I would know how to love him. And it would, I don't know how to say that. Like, it sounds sort of strange to say it like that, but

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: it just felt intuitive. And like, and some people say, well, that was, it means it's meant to be or that it's divinely sanctioned or something. And I

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: mean, I'm not here to say I know that's not true, but I think there's difference in this phase, which is the introvert tends to be drawn to the extrovert and vice versa.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: The person that is very spontaneous is often drawn to the more stable or predictable one. I think that is valuable for having children to have the resources across capacities.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: It is also what in the knowing the knowledge without love phase becomes the annoying things, the things that kill attraction. So it is often the very things in the beginning that drive it that can kill it. and we can talk

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: about that. Because I would say there's a difference between this sort of attraction happening to you and a desire that's more choice-based, that's investment-based, that Dr. Schnarch talked about a lot. So I think making some distinction there. But my larger point here is that desire happens to you and it's in the beginning and it's important. And when couples don't have it, it is harder. Like some people

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: say, oh, that's just about sexuality and therefore it's less than love. And I... completely disagree with that because attraction in marriage is important. Um, but assuming that attraction is there in the beginning, that what often happens is reality of the limitations of the other person, the way they're different than you, the way they don't validate you at every turn. Like they did in the beginning. Right. So just in the beginning, you're like, this person's looking at me, like I'm the most amazing person and I'm

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: reflecting it right back to them. And so there's this mutual validation going on in the beginning, especially when there's not a lot of reality to deal with. But when you get married and you now have a mortgage or you have kids and you start having these issues of different realities, different desires, I want this stop telling me what to do.

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: This, how do we blend two lives in a meaningful way? And because that asks us to sacrifice. aspects of ourselves to make room for another person. I think that process can be soul-stretching. If we are not careful, many of us go into marriage thinking, you owe me love. I'm locking

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: in somebody who's going to love me like a parent only better. They shouldn't want this thing. The way they want to do Christmas is stupid. They've got the wrong idea. And so we start pounding on our partner to kind of be like us or reinforce us.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: Or we just start yielding to try to make the other person happy. But it starts to drive a meaning that kills attraction and kills desire. And go in the knowledge without love phase that where you know a lot about your partner but you're not sure you feel so much good feelings about them. This is where attraction tends to plummet.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: And because resentment kicks in, why can't you be more like my dad, right? Why are you wanting this thing from me? It's the wrong thing to want. And that sense, so in the beginning, your new partner has, like Dr. Schnarsh would talk about, we want to belong to ourselves more than we want to have sex. And in that first phase, that person makes you feel bigger, better. They're connected to possibility. This person loves everything about me. So you feel attraction and connection. But when you get to know a lot about them, now it's like, well, okay, they want the house to be cleaner than I like, and they're so picky about it. So it starts to be connected to a feeling of losing yourself. Now I need to do it their way, or they're always upset

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: with me. right? Or they want to have sex at a different pace that I want to have sex and I feel, you know, that limits my happiness. And

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: so because they start to be connected to a sense of constriction or loss of self, then often resentment kicks in and desire goes down. That's not the only reason

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: it can go down. I can, there's another

Corey Allan: No.

jennifer: reason, but that's dominant, but that's a big reason.

Corey Allan: Yeah, because

jennifer: Mm hmm.

Corey Allan: I think this, because what you're describing here is that natural evolution of a longer term relationship where, you know, I've always used the terminology of in a long term committed relationship, you can't hide as the time goes by.

jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: You know, they, if, particularly if,

jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: if one or both of you are paying attention, you can't,

jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: you can't hide who you are. That will be

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: seen

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: and elements

jennifer: That's right.

Corey Allan: of you won't be liked even.

jennifer: Exactly. And people who are inclined to have multiple affairs are basically looking for that first phase because that's all they can get. So that is, I want the easy validation of that initial attraction, that initial sex, excuse me, that initial sexual experience, because they don't

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: really know me. I don't know them. And,

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: um, If I'm someone who's willing to lie and cheat and so on, anybody that really knows me is not gonna feel be too validating of that. So people that are chronically

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: looking for that shallow validation are wanting to stay in that first phase. But of course, while it's human and understandable on some level because it feels so good, you never have the sense of being really known and desired.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: Really. someone who's invested in knowing who you are and having any peace in that reality. And so the natural evolution is in a sense the refiner's fire that's like, okay, like I'm starting to expose who I am and who you are and there's some ugly parts here and there's some incongruent parts here. And are we willing to be invested enough in a commitment to

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: one another, to this marriage, to this sexual partnership? to work some of this out in an honest and fair way, a way that you can thrive and I can thrive. Most of us resist that process and pay a big price in terms of the quality of the marriage and the sexual relationship.

Corey Allan: Yeah, and when you say there's also, this is something I just talked about in a recent episode that Pam and I did, that there's also a component of what's being challenged is my commitment to my marriage, but it's also what's being challenged is my commitment to myself. Because there's a,

jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: it's going on simultaneously, right? That I have a dual relationship almost with

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: self and other, right? What we're creating together. and what's being challenged of me, but how far, I mean, that's what Shnarch would always talk about is, I only go so far of giving up, giving up myself, and then I'll hit a point of like, no, I will stand

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: up

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: for me, right? I'll give for a while,

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: but then that's what you're talking about, resentment, and some of that struggle can come in, because then eventually it'd be like, that's enough, I'm standing up, and sometimes it's an overreaction when I do so.

jennifer: Exactly. So I do a podcast, a subscription podcast called Room for Two, and I'm working with couples

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: doing coaching around the challenges that are in their relationship around working out some of these questions around sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy. And the reason I call it Room for Two is of course the double entendre there, but the idea of how

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: do we create room for two of us to thrive. Those are the happy marriages according to all the

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: good research is that People that feel like they can belong to themselves and expand their sense of self in a marriage are the happiest. People that feel like they have to close

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: down important parts of themselves. But of course the important question is, is my standing up for this about me holding on to my dignity and something important in this marriage? Or am I just being selfish and bulldozing the other person? Which one is it, right? And we

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: don't often know, like, am I asking for too much or too little? Is the person's resistance

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: because I'm just unfair and I'm too focused on my own demands? Or is the person resisting because they don't wanna make room for the best in me? And I think part of the way we find the answers is how to, it's like pushing like, okay, am I giving too little? What really helps my partner to thrive? what is honest and good in the other person, and I need to respect it. One way we can kind of get closer to this is what initially drew me to this person. Because a lot of times what drew us to the other person were the very things that are different from us, that then we want to squash when it's inconvenient for us.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: Right? You know, like I was drawn to my husband's general kind of ease of being in the world, like just more laid back than me. I came from a family that was pretty driven and so on. My husband's very intelligent and thoughtful and reads a lot, but it was like his kind of a comfort in life and ability to be sort of thoughtful and talk through ideas with me that I was very, very drawn to. But that ease, like then I would sort of bring this demand that was kind of placed on me as a kid, like that you have to produce and do things. And then I would want him to be somebody who was producing and doing things, because that was a reinforcement

Corey Allan: the

jennifer: of a value that

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: I liked and resented at the same time, right? You know what I mean? So it was like, don't do that to him. That's never who he was. It's exactly the person I chose was somebody that wasn't like that. And I'm being ridiculous and unfair. Let him be who he is. So it was like me growing myself up a bit to let him be who he is and to not and to value that quality that's something that mattered to me. And anyway, that's just one version of it. But yeah.

Corey Allan: Yeah, no, because I think that's part of the whole crucible that Schnarse uses the term of relationship in the sense that what's being challenged is both members within that as well as the relationship.

jennifer: That's right,

Corey Allan: And that's a natural

jennifer: exactly.

Corey Allan: thing. And that's where I think the way we started this conversation is it's not at all surprising to think that attraction and desire will wane as you get deeper and deeper into the fire, quote unquote. And then you're

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: faced with now shifting it the way I love your terminology of its desire and attraction initially start happens to us. But then the ultimate goal

jennifer: Yeah,

Corey Allan: is make it to where it's the

jennifer: is to

Corey Allan: choice

jennifer: choose.

Corey Allan: from us. Right.

jennifer: That's right, that's right. And you know, and that's what Terry Real talks about that too, that third phase is choice based. And you know, we have to be differentiated enough to be capable of making a choice. A lot of times the way we get married is more out of a need for reinforcement, a desire for reinforcement of who we are. Come and prop me up and tell me I'm amazing. And I need

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: you to tell me I'm okay for me to feel okay. That's how most of us get married, but it's... It has a short half-life and it starts to, you find quickly, you can't get that reinforcement usually. If the marriage is healthy, you're going to find places you cannot get it. And

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: that pressures us to start to self-validate and to start looking more honestly at ourselves and to figure out where we feel that we're not being fair and decent and where we can stand behind our positions more strongly. But what happens then is you're more in a position to say, I choose this person who's sometimes... drives me crazy who sometimes disappoints me.

Corey Allan: the

jennifer: But I choose really to bring my best to this person, to create a good sexual relationship with them, to value them, to create something that is compelling. I mean, that's really

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: it. You're co-creating a compelling relationship. You're co-creating meaning that makes your spouse desirable. My spouse is 64 years old now. I mean, maybe from an objective sensibility, he's not attractive, but from my point of view, he's very, very attractive. Because in part of the meaning of who this person is in my life, how he's the primary witness of my life, the person that has cared so much about me, the positive and expansive experience of a good sexual relationship, of course he's attractive, right? And it's

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: not just based on some physical ideal. It's based on a meaning that we have created together.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's the deeper thing, right? Because then you're moving it into this element of it's beyond something that's the superficial initial, even though

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: there's stuff like you alluded to earlier, that there's still something that makes sense, which is usually the deeper, right? It's

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: that element of familial, it's that element of understandable or common experience or

jennifer: Yeah, and

Corey Allan: what

jennifer: the beauty

Corey Allan: have you.

jennifer: in it.

Corey Allan: Right. And

jennifer: The

Corey Allan: then

jennifer: beauty

Corey Allan: when you get

jennifer: in the

Corey Allan: deeper

jennifer: other soul,

Corey Allan: into it,

jennifer: you

Corey Allan: you

jennifer: know.

Corey Allan: know, when you get deeper into it, then it's all the sudden those deeper aspects of our being and existence, which is

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: impact, meaning, value, you know, things

jennifer: what

Corey Allan: that

jennifer: really

Corey Allan: really

jennifer: matters

Corey Allan: do drive

jennifer: in life.

Corey Allan: us. Right.

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: Things

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: that separate us from just other things that happen in the world

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: that

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: it's like, oh, I've seen that now. Okay. That makes more sense. And I think most of the time the people I come across that really struggle and wrestle with this, are the ones that haven't seen it through that lens. They just think, up, it's attraction's gone, it's over, broken,

jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: something's wrong.

jennifer: Well, and you owe me validation and why haven't you given me the life that I wanted or why haven't you given me the sense of self that I wanted you to give me and if you'd been a good husband, you would have done X, Y and Z.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: And just the immaturity of that position, a lot of people hang on to that resentfully for life and that's how they do marriage and even if they stay married, that's how they do

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: it. And they don't ever get to that phase of choice. and they aren't able to see the beauty that's there. Well, they don't create it. And

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: so there isn't a lot of beauty. And just my mom in this phase of being sick, all the meaning is so high. We had family gather to be with her over this last weekend and just so much beauty and good there. That is so much appreciation and valuing

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: and gratitude and acknowledgement. of her children, of her children-in-law, and just how precious life is and how precious love is.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: And it requires a kind of ability to see what is good and what is beautiful. And if we're so caught up in our own egos and our own demands,

Corey Allan: Yeah,

jennifer: we can't see it.

Corey Allan: yeah,

jennifer: And a lot of us

Corey Allan: yeah.

jennifer: do marriage that way, and we lose, we really lose the good that can be there.

Corey Allan: Yeah, that's a great way to frame it because it's recognizing how often we see things only through our lens as it impacts and affects and goes according to my plan rather than what about the fact that I'm

jennifer: Great.

Corey Allan: part of a larger something. You know, because you've got the human race, yes,

jennifer: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Corey Allan: I owe some decency to others, but I also have

jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: my family, I have the people I've chosen to be in relationship with, I have neighbors, college, you know, there's something I'm a larger, I'm a part of a larger story, a larger something that

jennifer: That's right.

Corey Allan: when

jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: I can recognize and orient appropriately to that, that gives a different kind of energy and drive, hopefully.

jennifer: That's right. That's absolutely. So like in the New Testament Christ says something, I think it's, I'm trying to remember where it said, but basically we lose ourselves to find ourselves. And maybe it's a sermon on the Mount. So you lose yourself to find

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: yourself. A lot of people think that means you just like a martyr and then you just let people walk

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: all over you and then you're gonna find yourself in

Corey Allan: Yeah.

jennifer: the next life and you're gonna get a big reward. But I don't think that's the meaning of it. You lose your ego. And by

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: ego, I mean this kind of demand about how people should see me, how people should feel about me, my preoccupation with how I'm understood or seen. And that's normal in the beginning part of our lives. It's a normal way to get married. But as Shnarsh talked about, marriage is a growth promoting machine. I can't remember how he used to say that, but that basically you can use the dyadic strains of marriage.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: to grow yourself up. I'm demanding

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: too much. I demand too much reinforcement. I'm not a very kind person. I really need to be more loving and caring for other people. I mean, marriage will show you that part of yourself. And,

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: or where you don't stand up for yourself enough, right? Or where you don't

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: hold on to your own dignity enough. And it exposes our distortions. But ultimately we grow out of that self preoccupation to, as you say, Corey, collective in the marriage, in the family, in the group, not

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: because you don't matter, but you're letting go of that self preoccupation and that's where you find yourself. Like that is you feel

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: whole, connected, you know you matter as does everyone around you. You know that you are significant and the group is so important to your wellbeing. And you can hold

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: on to both. You know, I remember Shnarr saying something like, anybody that screws with their support system screws with themselves. If you basically go looking for self-reinforcement at the expense of your marriage, at the expense of your family, you pay a massive price even in your own sense of dignity and well-being and you don't have friends if you mistreat

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: the people around you. So there are two sides of the same coin of like, how do I be fair to myself and the marriage? How do I be fair to myself and the group? That's a fundamental tension. but one that drives us out of ego, but into wholeness and into meaning,

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: and that drives long-term desire. Like, Shnarsha's focus was desire in long-term relationships. How do you grow into somebody capable of desire? And not like, oh, I've got the hots for you, desire. No problem with having the hots for your partner, okay? But like, I choose you. I value you. I cherish you in my life. I'm grateful to have you here next to me. you are a significant friend and person that I care about and I'm going to treat fairly and well to the best of my ability. That's desire. And it's driven by choice. And it's out of when we're moving out of ego reinforcement demands into care to actually loving out of choice.

Corey Allan: So have you seen, I'm curious, maybe this goes off the rails with this kind of a framework right now of

jennifer: Mm.

Corey Allan: where I'm trying to lead it in a sense. But have you seen both in the work you do and then also the fact that you're female, this impacts men and women differently on what it requires of them, what's challenged in them, what their route might be. Is there any variance in there?

jennifer: Um... Well, I think if I were to speak stereotypically, because it doesn't always fit the stereotype, but if I were to speak of women as a whole and men as a whole in traditional

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: marriage, because I work with a lot of traditional couples, because I work with Latter-day Saints a lot, I would say that women, so I have a women's course called The Art of Desire, which is about self and sexual development, and a men's course called Art of Loving. which is about self and sexual development and how to become someone more capable of intimate sexuality, right? So

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: the reason why those courses are named as they are is it's the vulnerability of each. So women are often sort of more intuitively and biologically wired to be self-sacrificing. I think this helps keep babies alive, right? Women are waking up in the middle of the night in part because I think they're more wired to track, right? they're

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: tracking the minds of other people more than men do. Men often think, hey, I don't even care what people think. It's partly because they're not even tracking what other people think, okay. So I think men

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: are often not as tuned in and women can be so tuned in that it can be handicapping, right, they can track everybody and feel kind of handicapped by what everybody thinks about them. The strength in that is the ability to attend to other people's needs and desires and be a caregiver, which is a big deal. significant to society, significant to the wellbeing of society, often undervalued, unfairly, but highly, highly valuable work. The vulnerability for women often is their self in that dynamic, being able to hold a sense of their own desires. What matters to me? What is the self development that is important for me to do? Not just what does everyone need from me.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: And so women's development often goes initially into that sort of self-sacrificing, but as they grow, starting to make more room for themselves within their lives, within their group. Now, this is not all, sometimes this is men that do this

Corey Allan: Yeah,

jennifer: and, and

Corey Allan: absolutely.

jennifer: they are giving too

Corey Allan: I mean,

jennifer: much

Corey Allan: we'll

jennifer: in their marriages, right? Yes. So there's always

Corey Allan: keep

jennifer: that

Corey Allan: it stereotypical

jennifer: truth.

Corey Allan: just for the sake of the conversation.

jennifer: Sure. Exactly. For men, often they're more you know, if I want to sell courses online, I'll sometimes advertise. If I say to women, buy a gift for yourself this Mother's Day, nobody clicks, no women click on it. You say to men, buy a gift

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: for yourself for Father's Day, click, click. Okay. If you say to women, you know, invest in your family and or invest in your sexual relationship, they'll do it because it's like, okay, I need to do that for my marriage. So, you know, so I kind

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: of will, will appeal to people's strong suit. but to help them develop the other side. For men, it's the art of loving. How do you actually, maybe you like sex and maybe you don't have any anxieties about sex, right? Maybe your partner does, but, or maybe you have fewer than you think, okay, but you don't, that's not your vulnerability, but being invested, learning to love through sexuality, learning to invest in another partner, not the nice guy who's trying to just get, you know, get approval through sex, not that whole thing. but actually invested in the wellbeing of your partner. How do you learn to sacrifice in a way that's solid and good for the collective? And

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: for many men, that's not as intuitive as the question of what do I desire? What do I want? What is my ambition? What am I going for? And so again, that's a real strength, right? Society needs that kind of focus, that sense of mission, that sense of goal-oriented behavior, but it often can be at the sacrifice of relationships. And so how, as men grow, how do you develop this other capacity? Because women who love sex are with a partner that they know is invested in them. This is women's fantasies, is that man chooses me, not because he likes sex, he likes sex with me. And he knows me and he cares about me, as Esther Perel says, the quickest way to a woman's vagina is through her head, I think something like that. That is to say, to know her, to know

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: what she matters to her. And so, you know, that learning how to not just care if you're going to get sexual reinforcement, but care about the woman herself. So that's often the different pathways that people grow in development.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: Of course, there's a lot of overlap.

Corey Allan: Right, because I think what you're pointing out is there can be a gender-based strength and weakness going on and what's being exposed in the relationship is the weakness.

jennifer: That's right.

Corey Allan: Because

jennifer: Exactly

Corey Allan: something

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: you alluded to and stated earlier is our spouse's job, we don't think of it this way, but a lot of times our spouse will inherently expose the aspects of us that are underdeveloped. or anxiety ridden or whatever

jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: it might be. And then when they take a break, I like to use the phrase, when our spouse takes a break, our kids step in and expose more

jennifer: That's right.

Corey Allan: or pick

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: up

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: the baton and keep going.

jennifer: Teenagers. Yep.

Corey Allan: Yeah, because one of the things I've noticed with our oldest girl just graduated high school, so she heads

jennifer: Yep.

Corey Allan: off as we're recording this in about a month to college

jennifer: Oh my

Corey Allan: a

jennifer: goodness.

Corey Allan: couple of states

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: away.

jennifer: Yep.

Corey Allan: And so I'm noticing Pam, it's not clingy, but she's upped the, I want to capture every moment possible

jennifer: moment sure

Corey Allan: quotient with her.

jennifer: yeah

Corey Allan: Whereas I've noticed what I battle is not pushing away.

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right, because it's kind of like, I see the pain coming, so I'm just, I'm gonna avoid,

jennifer: Yep.

Corey Allan: because that's what gets

jennifer: Very

Corey Allan: exposed

jennifer: interesting. Right.

Corey Allan: in me is

jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: a natural tendency of. I don't want to deal with the hard and the grief and the loss that is coming. So

jennifer: Yep,

Corey Allan: I'll just push

jennifer: exactly.

Corey Allan: it away and avoid.

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And I think that's a natural aspect at play here of

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: that's the dynamic of a relationship. It's challenging ourselves when all too often, if I'm not at my best, I blame my partner for even exposing that. I blame

jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: them for bringing that up. or wanting whatever it is or reacting the way they're reacting

jennifer: Right.

Corey Allan: rather than, no, that's just a natural thing.

jennifer: Exactly. And couples often do, they work out a dynamic between them without recognizing they're taking up two sides of the same tension. So that is to say, like, let's say that Pam were avoidant. Well, you might get more moving in towards your daughter,

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: let's go do this together. You know what I'm saying? Like you kind of balance

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: out the

Corey Allan: Oh,

jennifer: need.

Corey Allan: totally. Totally.

jennifer: And then you look at the other person and say, what's wrong with you? And this is very typical. Like one will be the heavy with the

Corey Allan: Hehehe

jennifer: kid, one will be the merciful one. And the more that each entrenched, the more they sort of justify the other rather than, look, we're kind of playing out our ambivalence, our shared collective ambivalence. And maybe we can forgive

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: each other a little more and forgive ourselves a little more for having this ambivalence or uncertainty. so that you don't

Corey Allan: Yeah, because

jennifer: vilify

Corey Allan: I think that's

jennifer: the other person.

Corey Allan: right, because there's such a systemic thing going on, right? Because

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: as

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: you're talking through this, I'm even thinking what's happened is our youngest who's 16, he's upped the edgy, grumpy, reactive, curt mentality,

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: which that's a factor in this thing too, because he's playing off like he's not going to miss her, but they're best friends.

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right? They've... They've loved being with each other. They do a lot together. And it's

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: this whole, I think as I'm sitting here thinking

jennifer: Sure.

Corey Allan: through this, looking at it from a different lens now, that's a natural

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: thing. So how do we lean into that as basically our opportunities for all of us to grow,

jennifer: That's right.

Corey Allan: or for sure, at least me.

jennifer: Yes, and just appreciate it for what it is, you know,

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: and forgive ourselves. That's the best antidote because it actually softens it rather than getting, why are you being so edgy and mean? You know, knock it off.

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: Rather, you know, again, like just going

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: through this difficult period with my mom, I can see like my lesser self emerge in times when I'm not expecting it or seeing it in others. The more slack you can cut everybody, just like, this is not easy. And the more we can just forgive ourselves and each other, the better this is gonna go. And really, it's like a big heavy hit of compassion when life is about giving us grief and loss and even intimacy and our ambivalence about intimacy and closeness, we can do all these things. So, yeah, absolutely. I was

Corey Allan: Yeah,

jennifer: gonna, I

Corey Allan: because

jennifer: had another

Corey Allan: I

jennifer: thought

Corey Allan: think it's

jennifer: as you

Corey Allan: important.

jennifer: went. Go ahead.

Corey Allan: Oh, if it comes to you, you interrupt me. But I think it's important that the words you just mentioned of compassion,

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: that that's one of those things that I think that's, if I look at it, it's not necessarily a hierarchy. But maybe that's the best way to think of it. That's higher up there, because that's almost a choice that I'm

jennifer: It

Corey Allan: granting.

jennifer: is.

Corey Allan: You know, it's like it's something I have to like orient towards. It's not just necessarily

jennifer: Yes,

Corey Allan: natural.

jennifer: that's right. Well, that's how I think of ego as the enemy to joy and I think of compassion

Corey Allan: Okay.

jennifer: as the friend to joy. And so if you think about what I think of as the best in Christian theology is the idea that compassion and love leads us into beauty and freedom, leads us into joy. And so

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: compassion is not natural. Now, attachment is natural. Desire to be close to others is natural. It's just born, it's inbred, okay? But that's

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: very different than compassion and love, which is to truly be capable of forgiving ourselves for our human condition, to forgive another person for their difficulty, their challenges in love, their self-preoccupation, and to forgive ourselves. And I don't mean like, oh, whatever, it doesn't matter kind of compassion, not

Corey Allan: No,

jennifer: flippancy.

Corey Allan: not at all.

jennifer: not

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: flippancy, but just mercy, just kindness that like, look, these things are, life is not easy. We do lesser things, myself included. And can I bring a good dose of forgiveness to this project? And we keep trying and keep striving to love better, to care better, to care about others, and to forgive ourselves as well. Because I think that is the end. That is what drives And so I think love leads the way into truth, into truthful living, into truthful relationship, into the capacity for intimacy, the capacity to really invest in another person and care about them. But it pushes us to be better people, pushes us to be stronger, to be capable

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: of it.

Corey Allan: Which then leads us into how we started this whole conversation of that's how, in a lot of ways, you can then make it a chosen desire, a

jennifer: That's right.

Corey Allan: chosen, you know, I

jennifer: Yes.

Corey Allan: embody it better rather

jennifer: Exactly.

Corey Allan: than it's something that's just coming to me.

jennifer: I was speaking to my brother recently about he's bringing up marriage and differences between men and women or something like that and I said, you know, when you really think about it, marriage is a big ask. I

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: know I and girlfriends would think like, oh, when we get married someday, we're going to be sitting on the swings holding hands, like these really over the top romantic ideals that are completely unrealistic. I was watching Jane Austen film recently. and they're great, but they really are porn for women. Okay, like that is unrealistic portrayals

Corey Allan: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

jennifer: of male proposals and okay. And my brother was saying, yeah, those

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: things are terrible. Make us have no chance, right? What a lot of women say about pornography for men is like these are unrealistic portrayals and so on. But you know, what often we want reinforcement around as women and what men often want reinforced are really not. going to be readily offered to us in marriage. And so we're kind of coming in with these colliding, self-reinforcing anticipations. And then marriage shows up and gives us a good shake and a good dose of reality. And

Corey Allan: Right.

jennifer: then it comes down to, am I gonna choose this suffering? Or am I gonna resent it and resist it? Am I gonna lean in? You know, I often think about this, when I'm... exercising and I'm thinking about 10 more minutes will be over, it just gets worse. If I'm like lean in and embrace

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: the difficulty, it gets easier. And it's similar with marriage, like lean in and embrace the hard, embrace the challenge of this and grow from it. We'll use it, use the suffering to become a better human, a better, more loving person. Teach me about myself, let it be, teach me about what is true and learn to build a bridge across these. differing worlds and grow into a greater sense of oneness in purpose that's not just about ego reinforcement, but about who we can be as two different people and how we can truly grow

Corey Allan: Yeah.

jennifer: to be people capable of friendship. And it's beautiful because it's a sexual friendship as well, or it can be if we choose it. And so that's like the good stuff. That's where all the rich desire is. And it's desire based in strength, not just ego. reinforcement.

Corey Allan: Yeah. Now that's, that is so good. So Jennifer, how can, how can people find you? Obviously I'll, I promote your stuff. I talk about you because you have really, really good stuff, but what's the best way for the, for those that are just now hearing you first to find you.

jennifer: Thank you. Well, probably the best way, so if you've never heard me before and you wanna just know more the way I think, you can go just listen to a free podcast I do, which is conversations like this. So first of all, go to my website, which is finlayson-fife.com. And under the podcast tabs, there is just conversations with Dr. Jennifer, and there are conversations like this in which I'm talking about aspects of faith. relationships, sexuality, intimacy, desire differences, all those good things. On there also, I have my Room for Two podcast where I'm working with couples. Now I do a lot of work with LDS couples, but it's the way I sound today, which is I'm talking about Christian themes

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

jennifer: sometimes, but primarily these human differences and how we grow into people capable of love and desire. So I have that room for two podcasts you can subscribe to and listen to me working with real couples who have pseudonyms and distorted voices, but nonetheless real couples in how to apply a lot of the principles I teach to the real day-to-day life of marriage. And then I also have five online courses around how to either talk to your kids about sex and help them develop sexual integrity, which I explain there what that is, but then also how to grow into Emotionally intimate and sexually intimate marriage. Those are all courses based to facilitate that goal. Yeah.

Corey Allan: Yeah, and I recommend them highly because it's, you frame things really, really well and your perspective. And it's, it's practical in the sense that

jennifer: Yeah.

Corey Allan: the thing I love just, you know, having been trained with SNARS too, is it's not a formula. It's just a way to look at things and then do it better.

jennifer: Yes, exactly

Corey Allan: Right. It's not

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: a A plus B will equal C, right? Instead,

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: it's

jennifer: right.

Corey Allan: look at, look at this

jennifer: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: through a different lens and then you get a better

jennifer: That's

Corey Allan: power.

jennifer: exactly.

Corey Allan: our stands.

jennifer: I say that to people all the time, like at the beginning of the workshops is just, this is about shift. It's not a lack of trying. You've been trying to address your marriage or your lack of desire or the challenges in your sexual relationship. So it's not about a lack of trying. It's that you may be likely trying from a paradigm, from a meaning frame that will not allow you to change or address the problem and I want to give you a different way to look at the same issues that opens up all kinds of possibilities. So I'm kind of taking down the old inherited meaning and giving people a new way to think about what's happening and what they can do. It's helpful for people because they are suddenly like, okay, now I know what I can do. Now I get what the problem is. and what my role is in addressing it. And that can be a huge relief. And they start to also see meaningful shifts happening in themselves and in their marriage. And it's a big deal. So it's

Corey Allan: That's awesome.

jennifer: satisfying to facilitate that.

Corey Allan: Well, Jennifer, I appreciate so much the opportunity to connect with you again and look forward to more in the future, okay?

jennifer: Great, thank you, Corey.