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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

Best Of SMR: Awaken Female Desire #573

On the Regular version of today’s show …

A best of SMR episode with an email from a higher desire wife that’s in a catch 22.

An interview with Pam Costa about her journey and research into female desire. How her experience of talking about the topic, taboos, and hesitancies with other women dramatically improved her desire levels.

On the Xtended version …

I continue the conversation with Pam Costa about the research project she created to study female desire levels and the practical steps everyone can talk to help themselves in this area of life.

Enjoy the show!

Sponsors …

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Got a question?

Call/Text us at  214-702-9565

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Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio,

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where it's a best of show today.

Pam Allan: We like best ofs.

Corey Allan: I love digging through the archives and seeing one, just the variety of things that have resonated with the SMR Nation because it's been across the board and over the 10 years of doing the show from time to time with schedules that we have going on, it's graduation season, it's travel season. There's just things that keep coming up. And there's also the benefit in my mind of just looking back to look forward. And so we just came from a graduation right before recording this and that's kind of the whole idea, you're looking back but then you're looking forward.

Pam Allan: And hopefully it's more looking forward.

Corey Allan: Absolutely it is. But this is Sexy Marriage Radio, where we want to do this with marriage.

Pam Allan: We do.

Corey Allan: Because it's important to know where we've come from and it's really important to know where we're trying to go and the way you can get our help on getting on board with whatever it is you want, you call us at (214) 702-9565, email us at You can also make an audio recording of your voice, email it to us, jump into the conversation because when everybody's speaking about what's going on, we all are better. The journey is just better for everybody.

Pam Allan: Yeah, yeah. We're not alone.

Corey Allan: As soon as we think we got this thing figured out, it changes.

Pam Allan: It changes and there's someone else who's walked that path.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Pam Allan: Let's be in this journey together.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And so we also ask for the Nation to help us out by spreading the word. And you can do that on iTunes. Rate and review, leave a comment, follow the show on any platform you choose, follow the show. It helps us climb the charts and that's actually really important. I'm going to do a quick plea, personal plea to the SMR Nation. If you just are a regular listener but you're not actually a subscriber or it's more and more moving to the trend of follower, whatever platform you choose, follow the show because if we can get a lot more followers, it climbs the chart quickly because the algorithms are looking for spikes. And so if you are listening regularly but not following, join us. That way every week, the new show shows up and you're right on board with the Nation and where we're going.

Pam Allan: Yeah. That's an easy way to support.

Corey Allan: Well, coming up on today's regular free version of Sex Marriage Radio is a best of show and it's the best of the episode 392. That was a long time ago.

Pam Allan: Oh that was a while ago.

Corey Allan: Awaken female desire. And there's actually a question that comes on ahead of it, of a higher desire wife who's in a catch 22 but then Pam Costa joins me, who's a researcher. And she discovered and created a TED Talk, but she discovered a process in a group dynamic with women on how you can awaken female desire and researched it out because she kind of geeks out a little bit and stumbled across her because of her TED talk. And it was a fantastic conversation. And then on the extended version today, which is deeper, longer and there are no ads, you can subscribe at, Pam Costa and I continue the dialogue, going deeper into her research and the whole study that she did.

Pam Allan: About female desire.

Corey Allan: To discover what does help awaken female desires. How did that work? And so all that's coming up on today's show.

Corey Allan: To start right off, we're going from an email at the inbox at This one just came in actually, and this says, "Dear Corey and Pam, first off, I love the show. Thank you for your valuable insight. I've learned a lot about myself and my husband through our words. Here's the issue," because they have a really good marriage. I'm going to have to paraphrase this some.

Pam Allan: Okay, that'll be helpful.

Corey Allan: Because it's a lengthy email. But the main, they have a really good marriage. They hardly fight. It's really pretty vibrant. But the issue is she is the higher desire.

Pam Allan: All right.

Corey Allan: And so it hasn't always been like this in their seven year relationship but it has been that way for a while. And although my husband never turns me away, I'm always the one who initiates. Though he responds enthusiastically and is happy to give the time and the effort, I feel hurt that unless I make it clear that I want to have sex, he'll just get into bed, say goodnight and fall asleep. She sometimes wonders how long she could go and not initiate before he actually would but she fears it might be months.

Pam Allan: I got to think that is a common thought that all high desires have, male or female.

Corey Allan: It is.

Pam Allan: How many nights, weeks, months could I go if I didn't initiate without sex? Okay, I'll let you keep going.

Corey Allan: No, no. Put a pin in that because that's worth bringing back up to explore just real quick. She's just curious because we've made a comment that it's often the lower desire spouse, that the one who may see things more clearly and feels that the sex the couple is having is not worth wanting. And I don't believe that's the case for us. We have amazing sex and I think my husband agrees but if I don't initiate, it doesn't happen. She has a deep desire to be pursued by her husband but he doesn't seem to realize it. This leads to the catch 22. If I tell him, he may start to pursue more but it won't feel authentic to me and that's the general content, that conflict.

Pam Allan: I want them to want it.

Corey Allan: Right. That's the conflict that we run into when we're talking about mismatched desires and the differences between the higher and lower. Her question is, there's so many things I want to add to our sex life. How often I want it, I want foreplay to begin outside of the bedroom. I dream about my husband sending me sensual text messages, whispering something sexy to me while we're going out about our day. And I'm at the point where I dream that I was the lower desire so that I could feel more confident in asking. I've actually worked up the courage to send my husband a text that was suggestive and he responded with a smiley or something that indicated that he didn't know how to respond and so she actually tried to lead into what she's looking for and it was almost like he didn't know how to respond to that.

Corey Allan: It's almost like they're both in unchartered waters is the way I'm hearing this. And so this is probably due to our strictly religious upbringings. My husband's not a spiteful or mean person and I'm sure he doesn't want to hurt me but I feel hurt. How can I help him and help myself? Thanks for the incredible work that you guys do. And this is an interesting one because some of this conversation I want you and I to have Pam, I want to take the gender out of it because some of it's just the dynamic between higher and lower and then that's just for a short snippet. And then the rest of it, I want to land on for her. Because one of the things that she's talking about with this dilemma of, if I don't initiate it, it's not going to happen. I don't know many ways around that as the higher desire.

Pam Allan: Okay. I've heard you talk quite a bit on the show about in essence how it sounds in my ear is this higher desire, you're just going to have to be okay with you being the one initiating.

Corey Allan: Well, and so some of this might mean we need to pull back and ask the question of, what does initiation mean? Because maybe there could be some definitions that help clarify that within this couple. Maybe there's if she sits down and says, "Look, here's the lay of the land. Here's the struggle I've got. I really want you to initiate some." Maybe he thinks he does. Maybe he thinks his responsiveness is initiation. Maybe there's a lot of different things where it's like, oh, I hadn't even thought of it that way maybe.

Pam Allan: And that's so funny. There was an episode on this responding versus initiating. And responsiveness is not initiating. By definition it's not.

Corey Allan: No, it's not.

Pam Allan: I get that.

Corey Allan: But it's the struggle of, I understand her fear because most higher desires understand, you know what? I'm really tired of doing all the lifting in this arena. Even though it's not the entirety of the lifting, it's just getting it started.

Pam Allan: Yeah. And she wants him to want it. She wants him to want to. Is it that he doesn't want it at all? Or just that he just doesn't initiate?

Corey Allan: Let me go back to what we put a pin in for her, of wondering how long she would have to go before he would. One of the things that comes to my mind when reading this email is if the dynamic is she will over function to make it happen, he doesn't have to. There's no requirement of him to step up.

Pam Allan: Because he knows that that's just going to be what happens, she's going to initiate it.

Corey Allan: I'm curious if there was a conversation that went somewhere along the lines of, "Honey, I feel like lately I have been the one that's carried the burden of making this stuff happen when it comes to sex for us. I'm taking a break, the ball's in your court, I'm here when you make the move."

Pam Allan: I really want to be with you but I'm waiting for you.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And it's just kind of a very overt because where the problem comes down is when couples like the higher desire goes, I wonder how long it would take? And they do it covertly because the theory is the void will be filled by the lower desire. That they'll up it because that's what's been squashing it, is my higher. But if I'm more upfront about calling out the dynamic, at least maybe that leads to a deeper conversation, deeper self awareness among both spouses, something to that effect that could shift the system a little bit to where it doesn't feel as much of a divide.

Pam Allan: I like that idea. And I'm saying that personally speaking. Coming from the lower desire's standpoint, not lower desire in that I don't want it but lower desire in that I don't want it as often and I'm kind of like the husband here. You know what? I'm sleepy. If it's bedtime, I'm perfectly happy if you're not making a move to go to sleep. But that being said, I do realize that if there's been however many nights of just going to sleep, I start feeling the pressure. It's going to happen one of these nights. It's going to happen. And it's this unspoken pressure of something's going to happen and I'm going to have to respond or perform. And so if it's not covert, if it's out in the open and you've had that discussion, you know what? I know from the get go it's squarely on my shoulders. I got to get my head there and I got to make it. It's my turn.

Corey Allan: At least the goal isn't, does the lower desire actually step up to the plate regularly, consistently, et cetera? That's an attachment to an outcome. Instead this move, the goal actually is calling out the dynamic between you better.

Pam Allan: Right. And I like the calling out and it's because the negative tension comes when we don't call it out. When it's just this hidden, well, if I don't bring it up, they won't bring it up. And it's just this whole passive thing. But if it's out in the open, to me, I take it as a more positive tension between the two of you and maybe a growth move for me because I know what I've got to step out of my comfort zone to make something happen.

Corey Allan: Right. And the key word you're talking about there, Pam, is the tension is in existence either way.

Pam Allan: Oh, it is totally.

Corey Allan: The tension is there. And so one of the things that I can hear in her email is, how do I break this tension? How do I avoid it? How do I change the tension? And you can't. The tension's just there. It's just a reality. And so some of it comes into this catch 22. That's exactly what she's describing, where at least she's recognizing when I bring it up and then he does it, I see it as disingenuous or not authentic because he doesn't actually want it. That's where the struggle of married life plays out is because we know our partners well enough. Then it comes down to, how do I start to focus not so much on the journey of how we are getting to places but do we actually get to places?

Corey Allan: Because this is one of the things we brought up in our life group a while back and one of the couples made a comment that he, a husband would set a reminder in his phone to remind him to send some text messages to his wife throughout the day. And one couple heard that as, oh, that's really good. And another heard that as, you have to remind yourself to do that? That's so bad. And so it's all in how we look at it. It's seeing this as, okay, well done to husband who when she does speak up, he follows through, it sounds like. He hears it. He acknowledges it. Then the pressure's on her to realize, do I get caught up in the fact that, oh, he didn't really mean it? Or do I get caught up in the fact that, hey, look at that, I'm getting what I want? Because now we're getting into our own self sabotage.

Pam Allan: Right. Well, I can't speak to whether he really did want it or not. That's an assumption. She knows him better. But she doesn't know him better than him so what kind of discussions have gone on there between the two of them as to whether he really does want?

Corey Allan: Well, this thing gets into the last point I want to make with them is that the whole concept of when we're talking about the dynamics of married life and we're talking about the deeper levels of this dynamic, when I claim what I'm wanting or I lay out what I'm wanting, I don't also have the blessing, now the blessing's the right. I don't also have the power to say, "Okay Pam, this is what I'm wanting from you." And then add this power of and here's how I want you to do it.

Corey Allan: Doesn't work that way. It's the concept of, I have to claim what I'm looking for, what I want, what I'm interested in, what would speak to me? Then I have to give my partner the room to fake it until they make it or fake it all the time or whatever. And if it's all the time where I'm getting the sense, I just get the sense you're buying me off with this. It's not real. I would rather the real, at least then I'm confronting the tension between us more accurately. And so too often we get caught in, let me tell you how I want to do this, when I don't get that right.

Pam Allan: No, no. There's two people here. You don't get a say how the whole game is going to be played.

Corey Allan: Exactly. And so the other last question I have for the higher desire wife in this email is when she's saying, "I want to feel pursued." Well, what does that exactly mean? What are some quantifiable definitions of that in the context of your marriage? And then the other question I have is, can you be or feel pursued in other ways that isn't just sexual initiation? Could you see some gestures that he's maybe already doing? Could you see some romantic things? Could you see some emotional connection that he's already doing? Some intimacy, some deep conversation, some of those? And is that actually the possibility of pursuit?

Pam Allan: Yeah. Is that his method of pursuing?

Corey Allan: Because this is something we haven't mentioned in a while on the show is what we often will do in married life is I look for the things in the manner in which I would do them. When in reality, my spouse may be doing them, I'm just not seeing them because she or he's not doing them in the manner I would do them.

Pam Allan: Yeah. And that's a touchy one because so many times we just don't even realize that until maybe it rears its head. That sometimes takes an outsider looking in or a spouse bringing it to our attention to realize, oh, they are doing what I've asked him to do.

Corey Allan: Right. Right. And that's the interesting thing that if you look at just the dynamic of marriage and how we believe at Sexy Marriage Radio, it's designed to help us grow up. That's the point. One of the mechanisms that really requires our growth is giving our partner freedom to be themselves and how they go alongside and live in among me. And so this is that thing of, I can handle my side of the equation and say what I'm looking for but I don't get to dictate all the terms in how it's done. I hope that helps.

Pam Allan: Hope so.

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Corey Allan: Some of the other emails we get in a lot over the course of Sexy Marriage Radio is this whole concept of the wife is the lower desire, which is the opposite of where we just were. And we've had lots of different concepts and conversations trying to figure out what is it that would help the lower desire partner? Well, one of the members I mentioned at the opening of the show, one of the members of Sexy Marriage Radio Academy posted, I just found this YouTube, this TED Talk, you got to watch it. And it quickly blew up in the academy.

Corey Allan: Oh yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I went and watched it and immediately emailed Jessica said, "Get Pam Costa on the show." And so what follows is a conversation with Pam Costa, where she has a TED. The title of her TED Talk is, Reclaiming Female Sexual Desire. And it's just her journey is the TED Talk. Well joining me for a segment of Sexy Marriage Radio and then with Pam's graciousness, she's going to go even further and more detail when we get into the extended area of today's show is Pam Costa. That the way she promoted herself when we were just talking was I used to be in tech and now I talk about sex. And so that's quite the leap. Pam, thanks for joining the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation today.

Pam Costa: Absolutely. It's great to be here.

Corey Allan: That just sets up the first question right off Pam is, how did that leap from what you used to do as the engineer tech lady to where you are now? How'd that happen?

Pam Costa: Yeah, it's a funny leap. If you would've come across me 10 years ago and told me this is where I'd be now, I would've just completely laughed. I love tech. I thought I'd be doing tech forever but as most midlife career change, things happen. Something happened in my life, which is that I was struggling with sex in my marriage. And honestly, I didn't think anything was possible to change that. I just kind of thought it was the way that it was but my husband and I had started seeing a sex therapist. And along that journey, I realized, wow, I'd never talked to anybody about this topic before but it's so helpful and maybe I should do this more. And I loved how when we were talking, you were saying, your Sexy Marriage Radio and everything, it just has kind of evolved organically. And same with me, it's just kind of evolved organically over time.

Corey Allan: Right. I would say that a lot of overlap in that we're trying to frame conversations or even start conversations because there's so much that has been stifled or tabooed or dogmatically religioned out or there's a lot of silence around this subject. And you're just so, the Sex Marriage Nation, some of the people in the academy are the ones that mentioned you first on your TED Talk.

Pam Costa: Oh wow. That's wonderful to hear.

Corey Allan: On just reclaiming your desire or just trying to figure out. And so I loved it because you even started off your TED Talk and we'll put a link to it in the show but you even start out your TED Talk with something along the lines of, "I struggle with sexual desire and I feel like I'm starting an AA meeting or something but that's me."

Pam Costa: Absolutely. I think that's the most powerful way to start is to just state what is, which we don't get a lot of modeling for doing.

Corey Allan: And so by doing that, that's really what launched you into where you are today, if you think about it.

Pam Costa: It is. Just speaking up and actually, I got to give a ton of credit to my husband. I think because I was struggling, I would've probably preferred to just keep sweeping this under the rug. But he was also struggling but he was the one that said, "Let's talk about this." This was one of those topics that we didn't really talk about but once every 12 months he'd sit down and say, "We need to talk." And I would begrudgingly, when someone says that to you, you kind of you pause?

Corey Allan: Oh yeah. That is not the opening anybody really likes to hear when you're talking about the struggles of marriage life.

Pam Costa: Yep. Exactly. But we did, we talked a little bit, once a year roughly and then, we kind of had that one time we were talking where something in me was like, maybe we actually need to get some help around this. And I didn't even really know what that looked like at the time. Who do you talk about sex with outside of your partner? Now I have so many resources to do that with but at the time I didn't really know.

Corey Allan: Right. And so that led you then to discovering that just talking about it makes a big difference.

Pam Costa: Yeah, surprisingly. I wouldn't have thought that. Even just the first person I went to was my OB and I sat down in her office and I said, "Hey, I'm struggling with desire. My husband wants more sex and I don't. And I don't know what to do about it so I'm coming to you." And she did this amazing thing, which is before she even started talking about what I could do, she just acknowledged the prevalence of this. She said, "Oh my gosh, you and every other woman in my practice." And she said, "And me too." And she shared her story and it was just this, nothing at that point had happened. Nothing had changed. I hadn't learned, knew anything new other than the fact that I wasn't alone and there was someone else struggling with this. And in fact, one of them was right in front of me and I felt so relieved just to have said it out loud and to have had it said back to me. Just that tiny little thing.

Corey Allan: And that's what's so interesting to me, Pam, is about the whole concept of silence. That it makes us feel all the more isolated, abnormal, weird, broken, all these things.

Pam Costa: All of those words.

Corey Allan: That just none of them feel good. They all just are like, eh, no one wants to feel that. And it's just finding the wherewithal and the courage to name it, to say it, changes the dynamic.

Pam Costa: Absolutely. In fact, my husband still to this day, I think marvels at that. That I will, anytime I just say something hard out loud to him. I think he kind of gets this feeling in his body, like oh my gosh, now this is going to be this hard, rough conversation. And I'm always like, oh my gosh, it is so much better just having said it out loud. It is. There's such a relief because I stand less chance of feeling crazy or broken or wrong or all those things when I just say it.

Corey Allan: Exactly. And so here's where one of the mantras I believe in, in love that's helped kind of shape and make the organic nature that Sexy Marriage Radio has become and grown to is that in everything, particularly in sex, there's a higher desire and a lower desire. That one of you wants something more than another and most of the time what I come across is couples don't think of that as differences, they think of that as right or wrong. That if I'm the lower desire, there must be something wrong with me because that's what my higher desire partner is always telling me. And then our society is always telling you that you should want more sex. Come on.

Pam Costa: The litmus test we have for desire out in the world is you're just walking around your day and then you're horny all of a sudden. And so if your desire doesn't operate that way, you feel broken because no one's talking about the other ways that it works.

Corey Allan: Right. Right. And so it's the thing I love about the message and what you've kind of landed on is this idea that really does target the lower desire. That really does help her in most cases, although 30% of my audience would be the man is the lower desire.

Pam Costa: Yeah. I would say in my practice it's 60/40, which I was super surprised about but is absolutely true.

Corey Allan: 40 being the male is lower or 60 being the male's the lower?

Pam Costa: 40 being the male is lower and 60 is the female.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And that's what's so funny is because that's the stuff that's not talked about either.

Pam Costa: Oh and I feel empathetic towards women because I've had that experience and the way I tell them, I'm like, "It's just like someone being hungrier in the relationship, they're just more hungry than you are and so you're never going to feel you're hunger and that's normal because you have two people." But I think men have this even added dose of shame placed by our culture because if you're a guy, you really should always be ready. My heart aches even more for the 40% of men.

Corey Allan: Right. No, I get it because that is one of those things that we've tried to do some shows in the past and really talk about that dynamic because it is different when it's the woman that's the higher desire because there seems to be something in the male makeup when he's the higher desire that I'll step up to the plate again and then I'll swing and try. And there's just this element of it hits different.

Pam Costa: It's what's portrayed out there on the television shows and everything.

Corey Allan: There's nothing wrong with me at least. But your thing of just trying to speak to the woman that struggles with desire and the main thing you've landed on from the little I've learned of you and I'm learning more, that is the biggest thing is talk about it, speak up, say something.

Pam Costa: Absolutely. And I'll probably add one more thing to that, which is talk about it. And also in that talking about it, what I find is that women start to not feel alone but then also kind of notice that when they talk about it with friends, there's a part of what happens in that conversation where you get to feel like, okay, I'm part of a community. I'm not alone. And then there's the other part where you start to hear people's stories and not just the bad stories. Oh, I struggling here. Because everyone also says, "But you know what does work for me?" And then they share something. Then you start to feel a little bit inspired during the conversation to maybe try something. And so I think it's like a springboard for exploration which is cool.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And well now you're speaking the higher desire's language of, oh, let's go explore some more. And so just to touch base real quick, as we kind of wrap up this segment with you and then I want to unpack this even more but this would be what the showbiz called a tease for those of you that are listening to the free version of Sexy Marriage Radio. If you want more, sign up to the extended.

Corey Allan: You've landed on this concept called circles, which when I read that and came across it, I was like, okay, this is so simplistic, it's brilliant. And that's what most things are it seems, because I have a lot of good results from doing masterminds with men. Just men being better men and we do it better in a group and so it's that same kind of model but briefly talk about what's the power of the circle? And then I want to talk about the research and what you found because being the researcher that you are, you've even geeked out on this.

Pam Costa: Yeah, I definitely did.

Corey Allan: Tell everybody a little bit about the circles.

Pam Costa: Yeah. What I found was even talking to my OB, that was relieving. And then we ended up finding a therapist and that was a nice conversation between me, my husband and this therapist. But along the way, I kind of was just struck by the importance of talking about it. And so I started talking to some girlfriends. I started writing kind of what my experiences were. I sent it to them. They immediately picked up the phone and called me. And one of them said, "We should get together in person and talk about this." Which actually kind of freaked me, because till that point I had been talking to just professionals. I knew that this was going to work but just talking to my girlfriends, I wasn't sure. But we did, we agreed. We were going to all put on our yoga clothes and go to the park because no one wanted to tell their partners where they were going.

Pam Costa: And we get to this park and we talk for hours. We cry, we laugh and at the end, we thought it was just, we were just going to meet in the park and talk and then we were done. We'd walk away. But at the end we thought, oh my gosh, we have to do this again next month. We actually just kept meeting, kept meeting, kept meeting, just talking about sex. And it was funny, the partners eventually found out. And like you said, the higher desire partners, some of them anyways were like, "Yeah, when are you going to go to Pam's thing again?"

Pam Costa: It was funny. I did that myself just with this group of 12 women for a year. And at the end of the year, I kind of had that revelation again, well, all women should be able to have this experience of talking to their girlfriends. And so I started to think about what we had talked about and I put together discussion prompts and I just put it on my website. And I said, "Hey, I've been doing this thing. If anyone else wants to do this thing, here's some materials to get you started."

Pam Costa: Because some women, just what blocks them is well one, asking their friends if they want to talk about sex, that's scary. And then two, knowing how to get the conversation started. I put materials out there for women to do that and they're just free. They're just sitting out there and a few hundred women did that. They wrote me and they got the materials and they had their own circles and eventually I started researching it because I thought, I want to be able to share with mental health professionals and doctors that this is a real, empirically validated thing. But it's powerful.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And that's the thing because what rings true just hearing you speak about it and just thinking about the journey that could be going on and is going on with a lot of the women and even in some cases, the men that can do a similar thing because sex is not refined to just women that have a struggle with it. It's realizing that this is kind of touching on the human spirit, the bond of community, the bond because I just think of it as used to back when settler days and nations were just getting formed, there would've been times sitting around the campfire and you know it could have easily spun towards the topic of sex.

Pam Costa: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: Or there was conversations sitting out on the front porches as communities are getting formed and there's no air conditioning because I've actually come across research that said one of the things that created the most disconnect in our country is air conditioning because people stopped sitting outside.

Pam Costa: It's funny, I just saw TED Talk about two women who are encouraging women to go walking in their neighborhood and kind of for the same reason. It's to build that community, to have those front porch conversations again. And the support you feel from another community of women talking about these conversations. I think it's interesting, the one guideline that I do give the circle participants is to not give advice. Because I think that's the one thing that we can tend to do that can actually curtail the connection of humanity that you're talking about. We always ask everyone to just speak about your personal experience and share that instead of getting into that like, well, have you tried, have you tried? And there's something about that that keeps it very humanity focused and is inspiring. I found women ending up wanting to, I provide content for four meetings and a lot of the women have written me and said, "Hey, after that fourth meeting, we came up with list of our own topics and we do field trips now and we do," all those great things.

Corey Allan: Well, that's awesome because you're talking about trying to remove the hurdle of the fix it mentality that I think we all can have. And if you have even just the simple rule of you can't talk, we're not trying to fix it. There's no advice giving here. There's no dominating here. This is a joint thing. It keeps the focus on the experience rather than, oh, let me help you. Or, oh at least it's not me. Because I think that's kind of where we will go to in our psyche, isn't it?

Pam Costa: Oh, that we'll compare and we'll fix and we'll judge and we'll do all these things, as opposed to just sharing what is going on for us. Which I think when you do that, actually all those other things kind of fade away. And and the solutions kind of actually just organically occur once you've been able to share in that way.

Corey Allan: Well, this been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone or you got a question, let us know (214) 702-9565 or We'll see you next time.