Corey Allan: Well, welcome to the show. We're alongside my wife, Pam, each and every week.

Pam Allan: Love being here.

Corey Allan: We jump into conversations that the nation's having and want to help speak to whatever's going on with them and their relationships or cover larger topics that help frame conversations and actions that we can take, that can propel life forward and hopefully your marriage comes along with it. That's where we'll be a little bit today-

Pam Allan: Typically, what I would think.

Corey Allan: ... with the episode. But if you're new to the show and you want a easy way to find out more about what goes on here and ways that you can find what we've covered in the past, check out our starter packs. Those are arranged by topic, also by popularity. Go to passionatelymarried.net/starter. Also, if you want to join in the conversation, give us a call, leave a voicemail, 214-702-9565. You can also text that line, or feedback@passionatelymarried.net.
And then we're also in the middle of if you want to join the academy with the regular level of All In, or masterclass level, if you use the code SUMMER23 till the end of August, you get the first month free. So, if you join on the monthly level, first month free, come join the academy. We got a coaching call next week, actually. You can jump in on that right away and get a-

Pam Allan: Come try it out.

Corey Allan: ... taste of what is going on. So, coming up today on the regular version of Passionately Married, we have an email that came in that I'm using, we're going to answer her email.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: But we're also going to use it as a springboard to talk about some bigger concepts. And if this unfolds the way I'm thinking it will in my mind, I'm going to tick some people off today.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because I've got some stances that I think just need to be stated.

Pam Allan: Just meddling in people's worlds, huh?

Corey Allan: I'm going to meddle a little bit, but I'm also going to try to just be fairly blunt about some things.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And on the extended content, we're going to go deeper and longer in there. No ads. You can subscribe at passionatelymarried.net/academy, SUMMER23, you get the first month free if you join on the monthly level. We're going to use the continuation of the springboard, but dive into the world of over-functioner and under-functioner and how that plays out in relationships and families.

Pam Allan: Interesting.

Corey Allan: All that's coming up on today's show. So, here's the email to set the stage, Pam.

Pam Allan: All right, let her roll.

Corey Allan: This came in based on episode 537 was what stirred the pot for her. And so she says, "I recently found your podcast and I'm so inspired. However, I came across one episode, 537, and I'm very upset by it." And 537 was, When the Lower Desire Initiates.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And I remember parts of it, but it's not going to be imperative we pull a lot in there. I think this is just springboards into-

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because she came across that episode, and, "I'm very upset. The man in the example was me, except I've totally changed my attitude unlike the man in the podcast. I'm a woman and I've been in a sexless marriage for 20 years. My husband refuses to go to counseling and tells me that I'm not the problem, he is. I know that's likely untrue, so I've tried everything under the sun to help me be a better wife. Counseling, Surrendered Wife, read so, so many books, lingerie. You name it, I've tried it.
I attend a Bible study with five married Christian women and have done so for over 25 years. I'm committed, but I know I must be an over-functioner and I want to get this sorted out. My husband, on the other hand, wishes I would just get over it. He treats me like a queen. I treat him like a king for the most part, except for this one area, the bedroom. Years ago when we had little kids, my husband suffered through a depression, as did the whole family, but someone had to pick up the pieces, and that was me. We've developed some unhealthy habits due to the stresses of life, but we have a good life. We love each other and we want to address things now that we're empty-nesters. Divorce is not an option. God brought us together.
Any suggestions other than to say it's all my fault because I'm over-functioned? I know it's a two-way street, and I realize that, but ultimatums don't work in this situation and you can't make somebody do something that they don't want to do. He will do anything to avoid confrontation on any front. It's been 20 years of a sexless marriage because I took a step back and thought that if I made myself better, like a person, wife, mom, et cetera, things would get better. We do have a much better relationship now, but we also have this giant elephant in the room. If you have any suggestions, I'm open to hearing them. We're both at a place where we want to move forward with our sexual intimacy, but it's hard. Oh, except it's not. He just has no desire at all.
No, he won't go see a urologist. Everything works fine. He just doesn't want to go there. He does so now, some, but it's awkward. I remember one podcast with your cohost before Pam, and she said that it was awkward if we aren't doing this regularly. Yes, awkward is the right word. So, any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks."
All right. So, to answer her directly, yes, it is awkward. Think about what happens with sex. A lot of times when we first introduce the topic with a partner, a spouse, the awkward is put aside because of the anxiety. We're anxious, we're excited when it's new, but it's still awkward because you don't know how to read each other. You don't know how to read yourself. Well, compound that exponentially in married life, because you do know how to read each other.

Pam Allan: You do know how to read each other. And if you've had a 20-year sexless marriage, this isn't, it's just coming into it brand new with that kind of awkwardness.

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Pam Allan: This has all the other baggage of 20 years, I mean, that's magnified.

Corey Allan: Right. And what it magnifies is what I want versus what you want. And it's because we read each other to know, "Oh, you don't really even want this. You're just doing this for me." And so, I let that sway what I want.
And so, to speak to her directly, this sounds like the path she's on, she's tried a lot of the things which are absolutely the right things to try, make myself better. But it also sounds like there's still the undercurrent caveat of an attachment to an outcome. "Making things better will produce this result." Rather than, "Making things better may, but it at least makes things better for me."

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: But if she wants to continue the steps towards, "I don't want to live in a sexless marriage." She has to confront divorce is not an option.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because if you know I have some big thing that I want to have happened in our marriage and you are against it, and I say, "But I'm not going anywhere." Where is the leverage either one of us has?

Pam Allan: So, I don't think you're saying this, but clarify for me, you're saying to use that word as leverage?

Corey Allan: No, I'm saying you have to confront that in yourself because marriage is a commitment in two things, in two levels to me.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: It's a commitment to my spouse and it's a commitment to myself.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: That's the framework of where the pressure lies. I can have a commitment to you and the things that I want to have done and the value I have in you, but I also don't lose myself in the midst of that commitment. I actually think my commitment to myself is more important than it is to you.

Pam Allan: Is that right? Okay. And why is that?

Corey Allan: I mean this in the framework of, "I am committing to my vow first and foremost, because I am responsible for me." If I have a commitment more to you than me, you have more sway over, I have to just swallow things. I can't take a stand on something. I can't speak up about anything, because well, I got a commitment to you. And that's where I think too often when we take these stances of, "Divorce is not an option." You've taken your legs out completely.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Rather than, it can still not be an option in your mind, but having the stances of, even just the statement of, "I refuse to have the entirety of my life be a sexless marriage."

Pam Allan: I'm tracking-

Corey Allan: That's a different statement than, "Divorce is not an option. We've got to figure out a way to work this out." Because I think we often fall back on that too quickly, because that stance I'd take, I know is heading towards that possibly. And so, I try to give assurances, which takes away my stance. Rather than, "I don't know if that means I'm heading towards this or not. It just means right now, this is the stance I'm taking."

Pam Allan: So, let's unpack some of that more. What leverage does someone have when I say, "I refuse to be in a sexless marriage."? What consequences are there? What do I have to stand on? I mean, where are you getting at? So, we're talking about the over-functioner and she's doing all these other things to try and ease him.
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Corey Allan: So, today's episode's also brought to you by the Relay Group app. So, in the past, on episode 626, You Need A Tribe, if you missed the conversation I got to have with Chandler Rogers and his wife, Jade, you definitely need to go back and listen to it. Chandler has a story that's all too common and familiar. It's part of my story as well. There was chronic porn use and it affects your marriage, but he and his wife overcame it, and he created a group recovery program called Relay to help people quit porn, plus any of the other things that they may struggle with that are habits, hurts, or hangups.
In the episode, we talked about the myth that your spouse should be your accountability partner to help you quit porn, because that is absolutely not a good path. And then we also go even deeper to talk about why you need a peer accountability group like Relay that can help you instead, because they curate you to put you with a group of people that are there regularly to help you all walk along and get better. So, go listen to it, episode 626. Use the link in the show notes or to go straight to Relay and try their group recovery program Chandler made. It'll help you quit porn and you can find deeper intimacy in your marriage, too. Well, that's what she has described-

Pam Allan: Am I going down the wrong path here?

Corey Allan: You jumped way ahead of where we're heading, which is perfectly fine, and a good little tease, because if you want more, you'll probably want to join the academy and check out the extended.

Pam Allan: That's going to be on the extended. Okay.

Corey Allan: Because that's where we're going to go deeper into that.

Pam Allan: I gotcha.

Corey Allan: But I think that still is at play here in that it's important to recognize there's components of this attachment to an outcome she's had, that I'm hearing just from what she's reading, that the pressure is felt by she's doing these things to enhance her life, her vibrancy, her vitality, her sexuality even. But if he knows it's all just a, "Well, I know what she's wanting, but she's not going anywhere."
Okay, let me go backwards real quick, because from our marriage, early on, five-and-a-half, six years in, I had an emotional betrayal. And there was a part of it, while all of that was beginning, I knew, "This is a disaster waiting to happen." But I also had this component in the back of my mind going, "Yeah, but Pam won't go anywhere." I mean, I don't think there was a logical thought there, but looking back at it, I think I had this belief of, "We're in this together no matter what."

Pam Allan: Huh.

Corey Allan: And when you sat across the table from me at the Town East food court, the mall in Mesquite, Texas-

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: ... handed the ring back to me and said, "If some things don't change, I'm not hanging around."

Pam Allan: "I'm out."

Corey Allan: That was a huge move to, "You better get your act in order or this ain't happening." So, we've talked about this before and alluded to, and she even says, "Ultimatums don't work." Well, because ultimately, ultimatums just hold yourself responsible for your move.

Pam Allan: I think of this on a parenting ... This goes in all relationships, I guess, is that if there's a consequence that I'm laying out, I have to be willing to follow through on it.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Right? And in the marriage relationship, you and I, neither one like divorce, we don't-

Corey Allan: No, absolutely. Not in favor of it.

Pam Allan: People throw that word around flippantly, or they come to that conclusion so quickly, because they're not willing to work through something and-

Corey Allan: Which is where-

Pam Allan: ... and understand the beauty that comes when you go through those trials together.

Corey Allan: Which is where commitment to self comes into play.

Pam Allan: Gotcha. Okay.

Corey Allan: Of, I'm going to see this through at this current stage because I've made a commitment and it's an integrity move for me. It's not about the behavior of my spouse or not at this point. It's about for me.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Right. And so, if I build on that, that's where my leverage ... And leverage is a weird word to say, because that is inherently synchronous in a sense that it will elicit something which is an attachment to outcome. And all these can go off the rails quickly, but it's being able to, as we've talked about, and we try to practice in our life, make a move, figure out where I am, then figure out the next move.
So, if I'm taking a step towards something, it ultimately could end up in a place I don't want it to go. And in this case, divorce. I don't want it to go there. She doesn't want it to go there. He doesn't want it to go there. But the steps-

Pam Allan: Well, then why would you even bring that word up? I guess I'm going back to, wow, you threw out that word early on and it feels like, wow, she wasn't even talking about that in her email.

Corey Allan: Divorce? Well, she said, "Divorce is not an option."

Pam Allan: Right. Exactly.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: So, I guess you're just coming at it from the standpoint of-

Corey Allan: Well, because it, to me, what it sounds like is, and this is what a lot of couples do, we come into this with this expectation of, "We're in this together. Divorce is not an option."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Which also then, the worst in us can take that as a license to, "Oh, I can do whatever I want then." And not to a crazy way out there degree. But it's a dramatically different thing when I realize the choices I make have impact and that impact could be, my partner won't stay around, my partner could be out.

Pam Allan: So, I think what I'm hearing here is, don't use that phrase of, "Divorce is not an option." To allow yourself to get run over, to not be yourself, to not be whole, to not live to your integrity.

Corey Allan: Or, to have to swallow something that is unbearable for you. Because if she really wants to have a sex-full marriage, then they're at a huge impasse, because he can take the stance ... And this is another component to expand on in a slightly different way. He can take the one down stance, which is, "It's not you, it's all me." And then not do anything about it.

Pam Allan: Which is kind of what it sounds like for 20 years has happened.

Corey Allan: Right. Okay. So, then that means it's back on her to have to face, "What do I do about this?"

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And if she is trying to do these, "Well, I'll just accommodate." Well, you're stuck until you recognize, "Look, I have choices here. I have wants, I have desires. I don't know how I'm going to go about trying to get them yet, but I do know I can head towards that."
I actually had a guy years ago in a similar situation, wife that was ... She dug her heels in, "I'm not willing to have sex. I'm not willing to talk about it." And they went 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years. I'm not sure. I don't remember the exact details. But he then had kind of her epiphany from this email of, "I'm going to get my life in order. I'm going to start being somebody I like." Right?

Pam Allan: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: And which is what we talk about here on the show all the time.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: That's our best next step, almost always.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And so, he starts building that. He starts seeing the tension of the marriage is gone, but there's still that elephant in the room. Just like this lady. And he finally had the courage, because he had deep religious belief. He had the same kind of thing of, "God brought us together." Which that's a interesting leverage piece in this too.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because how could we stand against God? When I really believe a whole lot more of this is just choice. God blesses our choice. Yes, maybe, or not. But he actually made a statement as things were going and there was hints of things, but still no movement from her. He finally, after a little bit of time of soul-searching, made the statement to her, almost direct quote, "I'm working towards having a marriage with a great sex life. I'm hoping you are the wife that's a part of that."

Pam Allan: Eek.

Corey Allan: Exactly. I mean, that's a huge statement. But he had put the work in from his account and from what I was hearing from him in the map, that would back it up on, "I'm not going to just settle for this. I'm taking my power back and I'm not going to just settle for this." This is some of the same kind of things that have happened where one of us can make a move in marriage that says, "You can't ever do that again." When it's like, "Yeah, I'll take control of my life for that, please."
Way back, I've heard times of wives that have forbidden a husband to masturbate. And it's like, "It's my penis. I can do with it as I please, when I please." There's consequences to what I do. Yes, that's different. But we make these control moves to try to just alleviate anxiety, to try to bring control, to bring comfort, to bring normalcy. What's going on on both sides? Because his statement too of, a one down, "It's all me." That's an anxiety reducing statement, is looking chivalrous, but if you don't back it up, there's no chivalry there.

Pam Allan: Yeah, that's fair.

Corey Allan: Right? And so, it's looking at, they each took turns, and this is the larger story too, of one up and one down moves. She could do the one up move, "Oh, but look at how good this is." All that kind of stuff, which if it's attached to something, that's what makes it a one up move.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: It makes me look like the good one. When if I'm attaching it to some outcome, I'm not the good one. I don't have high ground here. I have preference, I have desire, I have wishes. But I have to realize if I want equality and collaboration, I don't have a high ground. And when I can ask the soul-searching questions-

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: I'm seeing...

Pam Allan: I would think that anything I'm doing, even if it's to improve myself, my goal is still going to be to also improve this relationship I'm in.

Corey Allan: That's a secondary component of it, absolutely. Because these are the both/ands. These aren't either/ors. We don't live in vacuums like this.

Pam Allan: And if I see myself, I know I'm improving and moving toward where I want to be, and my spouse is still sitting on the sideline ... I guess, I don't get how some of those conversations happen without what you're saying-

Corey Allan: Okay. They change-

Pam Allan: Calling it like, "I'm going to the high ground." Well-

Corey Allan: All right.

Pam Allan: Maybe I am doing it.

Corey Allan: No. They change. They change. The conversation shifts because it moves beyond the, "How come you can't X, Y, Z? Why do I always X, Y, Z?"

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: To, "Okay. So, what I'm seeing here is some things still aren't changing, even though I feel like I absolutely am." Okay. That's a different calling out the dynamic. I see this in therapy, in coaching with couples all the time.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: When I can accurately, succinctly capture where one of them are, they settle. You just actually physically see it. If you're watching this, they would be ... We're kind of amped up like we are in the show, a lot of times we can get the energy going because we're talking through this on the air.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And when you nail it and you really see a picture, you've done this too, when something clicks, you just go, "Oh, okay, now I know what I'm up against. Now I know what I'm facing." It doesn't make the problem go away. It just makes it clearer of what I'm really facing, because then it's no longer, "I have to make you do X, Y, Z." It's, I have to face who you are. That's now on me to face who you are. I'm not asking you to change. I just want to face what actually is present, not what's missing.

Pam Allan: "I just have to figure out how I'm going to face the dynamic of our relationship, clearly seeing who you are."

Corey Allan: As a tease out for the extended content, too, we had a time where, we might have alluded to this before, but this is a simpler parent-child example, but same concept just intensified, because in marriage it's incredibly more difficult. Because this was actually one of the quotes we made in one of my mastermind groups, one of the alumni groups I've got rolling. They want to make T-shirts of the different phrases that have been bounced around.

Pam Allan: Yeah, good idea.

Corey Allan: And one of them that I made a comment of, "It's easy to read the tea leaves of other people except for the one you have sex with, because it just complicates things all the more." Because you have such more an intense relationship with that person. But the same principles are still at play. And so, we lugged around a piano for most all of our marriage because it was your childhood, you and your sister-

Pam Allan: Yeah. In the first 27 years.

Corey Allan: You and your sister's childhood instrument you played. And even in our marriage, I sat down and played a couple times, learned how to play one song, yay me. But you would play every so often, there would be spurts. And then the whole point was, when we have kids, I want to be able to let them play the piano. Maybe we teach them. I want them to learn.

Pam Allan: I want them to learn piano. Yes.

Corey Allan: Right. And so, when our daughter was probably six/seven-ish, maybe a little younger, you got on this, "How do we get her to play the piano?" And you would ask, and she's like, "Yeah." Because she was the pleaser, the firstborn. Yeah.

Pam Allan: She had lessons.

Corey Allan: And she, "Yeah, I'll try it out." But it was not something that was really her. It was just kind of, if we didn't prompt it, it wasn't happening. And one day we were standing in the kitchen and you were going to make a comment to her, and you looked at me and you said, "You know what? I'm spending all this energy trying to convince her to want to want to play the piano, when I don't ever sit down and play it."

Pam Allan: No.

Corey Allan: What would happen if I just started doing that because I want to, knowing an outcome could possibly be, she'd like to as well? And lo and behold, that's what happened. Within a couple days of you regularly sitting down, who's sitting next to you? Her.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: That's kind of the same concept that yes, this is a both/and move. "I'm doing this for me and a hope of what could come." But when I don't have the primary motivation of, "I'm doing this for me, and then I will address what I see after that move is made and move accordingly." That's how you determine what your next step is, which really then intensifies the pressure of what's already there.

Pam Allan: Oh, it's funny to expand on that even more though. In all reality, my sister was the one that was so good at the piano. Right?

Corey Allan: Okay.

Pam Allan: So, my time sitting down to the piano was very short-lived and so was my daughter's.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Pam Allan: So, it can't just be this one hit wonder where I sit down-

Corey Allan: No.

Pam Allan: ... and, oh, I start playing for couple weeks and then she takes off and runs with it. She's got to have that within herself, the same way I would've wanted to have had it within myself.

Corey Allan: Right. Right.

Pam Allan: And I ultimately really didn't have it. I just had this dream of what could be for her.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: So, if there's something we want, obviously we have to example it, but do you really want it or do you just want the dream of something with someone else working for it?

Corey Allan: Well, and this is where it becomes clear then on your statements that we make and the moves that we make, that if it's not an inherent, "Yes, this is absolutely what I want." Or, it's more of a, "I'm doing this because it's a service to you, it's a giving to you as my partner." When I can clarify that, that changes the dynamic, too. I mean, as we wrap up this segment, coming back from, we just did a big trip with our daughter for graduating high school, to New York City.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: I had one bucket list item, which was see the memorial, the 9/11 memorial. And I was trying to be very clear with you, and hopefully this was modeled well from what we're talking about here, because hopefully we exhibited this in some ways. Was, "I have one thing I want to do. Beyond that, I'm going to try to have a great attitude. I'm going to go along with what you guys want to do. I'll help navigate and I'm just going to try to have fun with it, but don't ask me what I want because this trip's not for me. I'm not a big city kind of a guy."

Pam Allan: Yeah. No, you're a national park guy.

Corey Allan: I enjoy it to a point, and then after that, I'd rather be in nature. And so, when that was clear, it made it to where if I'm walking along and I don't look like I'm having a great time, you could feed off that negatively or you could see it as, "Okay, I know what's going on here." I still, "I want to go see this." "Let's go do that." "I want eat here." "Perfect. Let's go do it." Because if I then am grumpy and bring everybody down, that's on me.

Pam Allan: Right. And to your credit, you recognize that now, you recognize-

Corey Allan: I didn't before. I'll own that. That is not something I was good at early.

Pam Allan: Well, I mean, that just comes with time, wisdom, right? And analyzing ourselves. And that's something you have done and there wasn't any of the bringing everybody else down.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Right? It's this realization that, "I've got to open up to the people around me and be present where I am. If I'm with people that I love, that I want to be with, what can I experience through seeing their eyes?"

Corey Allan: Right. That's adjusting the goal.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: That's recognizing your presence. As we wind this segment down, I think that's the kind of point that needs to be made of, we make these moves, obviously with an attachment to, "I hope this results in whatever it is I'm hoping for."

Pam Allan: Right. Because this is what I enjoy.

Corey Allan: Because I need to be aware of it. I mean, we either have sex or we don't. And yes, if we've gone big chunks of time where it's been sexless-ness, it is awkward and every time it's going to be awkward. And so, one of the best things you could do, to answer her question again is, acknowledge the awkwardness. "Hey, feel like some awkward sex going on a little bit? Because I'd be interested."

Pam Allan: Well, and awkward just doesn't even capture it, I don't think. Awkward is just one piece of it. The anxiety behind it is so much more severe.

Corey Allan: Right. And this is where you have to settle yourself down in the midst of that awkwardness and not let them, as in, i.e., your partner, rule the roost. Which is what we'll talk about in the extended content.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: But it's that element of, when I can soothe my own hurts, fears, and anxieties, I'm in a better position to see better what's really going on, and then make the move accordingly. Which could be, "I get the sense you're just doing this for me." And maybe he has an honest moment of, "I am." How's that bad? Because too often then we get caught up, "But I want you to want it." That doesn't happen very often in married life.

Pam Allan: Yeah. You can't make him want it.

Corey Allan: No.

Pam Allan: You can't make him want it. But if he's-

Corey Allan: But are they there? Are they giving it a good try? Are they caring? Are they present? That's a good thing.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And so, if we can look at these dynamics, they're at play all the time. How do I orient towards it? And then again, we say this regularly, I make the next best move, I see where I am, then I determine my next one.
Well, it's these kinds of shows, Pam, that are interesting to me when I look back at it, as we're winding things down, because it's like, I feel like some of our conversation just reveals things in me I don't even want to have to deal with either. I'll see patterns or habits or try to use examples. It's like, maybe I'm not as far along as I thought I was.

Pam Allan: But the beauty is, I think you are, and you've asked those questions all along the way, especially the last 25 years. And I think that's just another point to everybody that's listening is, all of these things get revealed over time. To this sweet lady that got ticked off at episode 537, it frustrated her. Something was being revealed to her in that.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam Allan: And here she is emailing in, wanting to dive into it, wanting to figure out more of her and him.

Corey Allan: And it sounds like he is too. They're in a great spot, but this is where the real work starts.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because now you're really having to examine yourself and how you've blamed other people for your stances. And that's the harder thing, because it's so much easier to put someone else to be responsible for me, because if it goes badly, I got somebody to blame. When in reality, no, I need to take on me.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Well, this has been Passionately Married. If we left something undone, please let us know. 214-702-9565, if you want us to expound on this, we'd be happy to in the future shows.
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