Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, passionatelymarried.net.

Corey Allan: Well, right out of the gates here at Sexy Marriage Radio this week, we got to just get right out ahead of this thing, because if anybody's planning to come to the Sexy Marriage Radio Getaway, they've yet to register. The deadline for the early bird rate goes away April 15th at the end of the day.

Pam Allan: Friday.

Corey Allan: So that's coming right up.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: At the time this is airing.

Pam Allan: Sign up soon Sign up soon.

Corey Allan: Head over to passionatelymarried.net/getaway, if you want to come join us in Indy. We hope you will, because it's going to be a fantastic four days together.

Pam Allan: Looking forward to it.

Corey Allan: Where it truly is a getaway. And so to all of you that are coming, there'll be more details coming out over the coming weeks about what to expect, insider information, set it all up that way. But come join us because it's a fun time to be getting away with your spouse and with a whole bunch of other couples, because the whole weekend is really geared towards your spouse, but you get to share it with the experience with other people. And it's a very, very cool time together.

Corey Allan: Well, this is Sexy Marriage Radio, where each and every week we spend some time going where you want to go, and talking about what's on your mind and you help frame the conversations and you help add to the conversations because you know what, Pam, people call in each and every week or they email us. And so call us at (214) 702-9565.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Yeah. We have a lot of follow ups. I mean, that was what a lot of last week was, right? Follow ups to prior shows.

Corey Allan: It was.

Pam Allan: It was a lot of fun.

Corey Allan: And we've got more in the queue in the weeks to come that are wrapping up. Even last week's show, we've got follow up to follow ups.

Pam Allan: Good.

Corey Allan: But it's great to have conversations that other people are adding their take, their perspective, because that's the one thing that's rung true over the 10 years of doing this show, and the three and a half with you on the air, is our experiences aren't unique, although they're unique.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: If that makes sense. And if you listen to SMR any length of time, you'll know what we're talking about with that, that there's a lot of similarities in the routes, in the issues that we all face. And so we want people to be a part of helping each other be better.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And the way you can do that is just let us know what's on your mind. So feedback at sexymarriageradio.com or (214) 702-9565 is the voicemail line. Also, please jump on iTunes, Spotify, Audible however you listen. Thanks for listening by the way.

Pam Allan: Yes.

Corey Allan: But also rate and review the show, leave a comment and help spread the word, that married sex is the hotbed for sex.

Corey Allan: Well, coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio, we're going to dive into a topic that we've touched on in the past, and it's worth exploring more, but we need to at least get out ahead of a couple of things.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And one would be, this is an issue when you're talking about BDSM and kink. There's lot of information out there that is kind of dicey to try to explore. If you were to type that into Google, you don't know where that rabbit trail's going to go.

Pam Allan: Right, and we get a lot of calls and emails-

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: -asking.

Corey Allan: This is something that has been asked of and addressed in the past, but we come at it, I come at it, from a clinical perspective, not from personal experience. And so what we've done is found a couple, Tornus and Smartypants, that this is what they teach. This is what they have done for years. Tornus has done this for two or three decades of teaching in BDSM and kink

Pam Allan: Wow. That's a long time.

Corey Allan: And so this is a couple that's coming on board to help people that are interested in learning more.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: That's where we're heading today.

Pam Allan: All right. So it's a safe place for it, for those that are interested.

Corey Allan: Absolutely is. But it also is an adult topic that is not something that's talked about a lot. And so we're just giving a fair warning ahead of time.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: That if you listen to SMR with kids in the car, heads up.

Pam Allan: Ah. Duly noted. Thank you very much.

Corey Allan: And then on the extended content today, which is deeper, longer, and there are no ads, you can subscribe at passionatelymarried.net/smracademy. We continued the conversation because the regular version is more kind of the 101. How do you get into this? What's some of the first logical steps? The extended content, we go into the idea of what's their personal journey into this.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: How did they get into this? And plus they give away some tips of here's some of the paraphernalia that's often advertised is this is an easy way to start. And they say, "No, here's better ways to do this."

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So it's some insider information that's really pretty good. I was like taking notes.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: While this section was going on, because I was like, "This is really good information."

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So all that's coming up on today's show.

Corey Allan: Well, if the pre-show conversations I've had with our couple is anything to say with what's going to happen with today's show, I'm excited where this is going to go. So I get a chance to welcome Tornus and Smartypants to the show today. And it's so great to hear you guys, see you guys, and meet you guys. Welcome to the show.

Tornus: Thank you for having us.

Smartypants: Yeah. Glad to be here.

Corey Allan: And we'll kind of let the names just hang out there, because Smartypants, I mean, come on. That can be applicable to a lot of different things.

Smartypants: Yeah.

Corey Allan: But the reason we've hooked up with you guys is to enter into the world of kink, BDSM, I mean, just some of the other things that in some regards are kind of on the edges, but there's also a whole community out there of participating, practicing. And so what I'm hoping to have you guys help us do is give us a crash course of a beginner's guide. And I think to start off, we got to start doing some definitions of what do some of these things mean, because I think if you get into the nuances of it, the words can mean the same, but they don't

Smartypants: And they mean different things to different people too.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. So if you were to educate somebody like myself, I'll I will be the audience of the Sexy Marriage Radio nation in this conversation, hopefully. And I wanted to venture into the world that you guys teach as professionals and help equip other people. What are some of the things I need to know entering into this?

Tornus: I would say maybe the first thing I would start with is just let go of some preconceptions. Just as if you were going to start having sex for the first time, there's probably a lot more to sex than you think, and a lot more flexibility. This can be what you want it to be. I think a lot of people come in thinking, "If I'm going to be kinky, if I'm going to do kink stuff, I have to do it this way. I have to do all of these things the way other people do them." And this is something that you and your partner want. This is just again like sex, use your words a lot. Think about what you want. Communicate about what the two of you want. And however it works for the two of you is the right way.

Corey Allan: Okay. So is there a definite of the, like do we need to separate out kink and then the aspects of BDSM, and then any other nuances too?

Smartypants: So BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominant submission, and sadism and masochism. So like that's where the initials come from.

Corey Allan: Right.

Smartypants: And personally, I prefer the term kink. It's more general, it's more flexible, because BDSM as a general concept and the term kink basically mean the same thing, but when you break down the specific words, it's a little bit more limiting.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: You might not specifically like bondage or dominance and submission or any of the other words that are specifically called out in there, but what you do is still kinky. So, personally, I like the term kink.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: As a general one.

Corey Allan: And does kink, in my understanding kink would be something that's non-normative, if you will. Right? Of just like what a normal couple and a normal day-to-day aspect of a marriage would be doing. That's like a little outside that circle. Am I wrong with that framing?

Tornus: I think that's right. I would say maybe kink is more likely to have some kind of power exchange, where someone who has some element of power over another person, some element of greater intensity, but like sex. What is adventuresome sex? Is adventuresome sex dressing up in costumes and having a script and doing a bunch of roleplay? Or is adventurous sex leaving the lights on?

Corey Allan: Yep. And depending on the people, absolutely. Okay.

Smartypants: Yeah. And so there's a lot of, I think there are lots of people, what they consider normal sex, in quotes, has kink elements in it. Lots of people have done like experimented it a bit with restraining somebody, tying somebody up, maybe holding their hands down, just like for a couple seconds during play or they've toyed with the idea of wax play. And they don't think of themselves as kinky and they don't even necessarily think of those as kinky, but so it's kind of what you define as normal. And it's really flexible. For some people even trying sex doggy style is kinky and different. So, it's really what works for you and your partner.

Corey Allan: Okay. And so obviously then you're describing this is an aspect that everybody has layers of this, depending on where they are and depending on how they've grown, because in some regards we all start venturing into this world that's going to be anxiety producing or a little bit unknown or novel or even flat out possibly what I could deem as weird.

Smartypants: Yeah.

Corey Allan: But then I grow into it and it's like, "You know what? I actually kind of really like that." I use the example of as a kid, when you first heard the idea of French kissing, typically we're like, "That sounds disgusting." And then it's like, "No, no, no. I love it." And then we can go even further with, well, the first time you hear about oral sex, it's like, "You want me to put my mouth where? No. Other things happen there. I'm not getting anywhere near that." And then we kind of grow into, "Yeah, I kind of like this. Let's do this a lot, actually."

Corey Allan: So, there's an element of this that we grow into, but for what you guys specifically teach, what are some of the reticence that you hear from people when they're coming to a class? What are some of the first things you hear for the new newcomers

Smartypants: Go for it.

Tornus: I think one thing we get a lot is, "Is there something wrong with me? Like if I want my partner to tie me up, does that mean there's something wrong? Does that mean they don't respect me? If I want to hurt someone, does that mean I'm a bad person? Does that mean I'm about to become a serial killer? Why do I want this?"

Corey Allan: Right. Okay.

Smartypants: Yeah. There's a lot of shame around people's internal fantasies. Somme people like what we call is rape play, where you are consensually sort of acting out, we call it consensual non-consent.

Corey Allan: Right.

Smartypants: And there's a lot of shame and fear. Like, "Why do I like that? Is there something wrong with me that I like experiencing that as the person being 'attacked' or being the one doing it?" And I think the key difference is consent. Whatever you're doing, whatever it is you want to do, however unusual or weird or different it feels if you have consent from the people you're doing it with, it's okay. And it has to be real consent.

Corey Allan: Right.

Smartypants: And there's pieces of that that probably we can go into some other time, but consent is the key difference.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: I think another common thing we hear is people don't know where to start.

Corey Allan: Right.

Smartypants: Like, "I'm interested in this and where's the on-ramp to this? What's the first step?" And that can be a big barrier for a lot of folks as well.

Corey Allan: Okay. So, let's kind of go with that one then, Smartypants. What are the on-ramps?

Smartypants: I'd say a big one we talk a lot about is figuring out what you like.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: So, spend some time thinking, spend some time examining what your fantasies are. If you masturbate, like what do you think about when you masturbate? What do you think about when you have sex with your partner? What are the things that turn you on? And so like first it's just doing some self-exploration, I think, and seeing what are the things that you might be interested in exploring with somebody else, if it were safe and consensual to do so.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Tornus: One of the things we tell beginners a lot is it's very easy to focus on the what. So like, "I saw a movie and there was this really hot sex scene and it really turned me on and there was rope and there was this person who was kind of a terrible human being and there was this really some gross ethical situation, but it was hot."

Corey Allan: Right.

Tornus: And maybe unpack that. Instead of like, "I need rope and a terrible human being and some bad things to happen, maybe what I really want is someone else is making all the choices so I don't have to decide anything? Maybe that's the actual hotness."

Corey Allan: Okay.

Tornus: Just unpack it a bit and see, not like what happened, but why was that hot?

Corey Allan: Right.

Tornus: What was the dynamics that you want to have with your partner?

Corey Allan: Right. And look at the meanings you've attached to it.

Tornus: Exactly.

Corey Allan: Or what some of those things signify that you're describing and how they're that correlates into a safer way to explore that is what you're describing.

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Corey Allan: And one of the things that you guys are pointing out, and I've always referred to the people that I've worked with in the past that have had this incorporated into their lives to varying degrees, some way, way into the culture and some just kind of dabbling and exploring but it's a regular occurrence enough that their level of communication between each other in this particular arena oftentimes, is very, very clear and concise. Kind of like what you're describing because consent comes from that, right? That's kind of the idea of the safe word, right? Of you need to have some established things in play and already set so that way each of you have created the way to maintain power even if you're asking to be overpowered.

Tornus: Yes.

Smartypants: Yes.

Corey Allan: Because that's a dynamic that's going to be definitely fraught with possible outcomes that aren't helpful for either one of you.

Smartypants: And you mentioned the idea of a safe word. So for those who aren't familiar, a safe word is basically a word that you agree on ahead of time, that everybody involved agrees on, that if you say that word, everything stops.

Corey Allan: Right.

Smartypants: So some people will pick words like supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. We often use "safe word" as our safe word.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: A lot of people do. Or red.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Smartypants: Like a stop or traffic system.

Corey Allan: Yeah. You don't have to make it harder than it has to be necessarily.

Smartypants: Right. And even better than that, like a better starting point, is using what we call plain old English or even POE.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: Where you say, "Stop. I don't like that." And the person stops and you talk about it.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: Now when you do get into situations which are more advanced where you're kind of playing with the concept of non-consent, that's where it gets more challenging. And that is more edge play, is what we call it. So starting with the using words, getting comfortable with words, both people spending time figuring out what they like and not necessarily trying to do, as Tornus said, the big perfect scene, but just, "I'm going to try with this little piece of it," and the two of you practice sharing. Try to let go of judgment and just hear what the other person likes.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: And use things like reflective listen, going, "So what I hear you saying is you really like the idea of giving up control. You've had a long day at work. You're exhausted. You've been making decisions all day. And when we do this you don't want to have to make any decisions. Is that right?" And the person goes, "Yes, I really like that idea."

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: Hopefully, or, "No, that's not quite what I'm getting at." And so practice starting with just words and practicing communication around it is really critical.

Corey Allan: No, I can see that because what you guys are also I'm hearing you keep coming back to is a lot of this is doing a lot of my heavy lifting for myself before I do it with my relationship.

Smartypants: Yeah.

Tornus: Yes.

Corey Allan: Because can't we all too often fall into this trap of, "Well, I've got something I want to try out. Now you figure it out for me, honey."

Smartypants: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right?

Smartypants: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Which I think we do that in all areas. For sure during sex, because that's that whole, "You're supposed to read my mind. We're supposed to be of one mind," or whatever fantasy or expectation I've brought into this thing. And so being able to really examine, "What does this mean to me? What would I like to really explore?" And Tornus, I like what you made the comment earlier of whatever the fantasy or the role play or the interaction I want to actually have happen, there's a deeper meaning I'm really probably trying to seek out within. Which might open up other ways I could find that, too.

Tornus: You talked earlier about shame and that's where we see a lot of people get in trouble, is a lot of people bring shame to this.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Tornus: And if you're ashamed of something, it can be very hard to talk about it. It can be very tempting to be like, "I can't say that I want this, but if I just start doing it, maybe we don't have to talk about it." Again, the same thing can happen with sex, but the stakes are potentially higher with kink.

Corey Allan: Right. Sure.

Tornus: That never works out well. And if you're like, "Well, if we don't talk about it, we don't have to confront this." Good luck with that.

Corey Allan: Okay. So tell me if this lands with you guys, because this is one of those things, quick little detour that I think comes back to what we're talking about, of one of the things I heard in a show years ago was a comment of the guy that the best sex education he ever got, as a teenager, was somebody telling him, "If you can't talk about that aspect of your life with the person you want to do it with, you're not ready to do it."

Tornus: Yes.

Corey Allan: Wouldn't this apply with this?

Smartypants: Yeah. I think that's a great piece of advice. The reality is most of us don't actually follow that, but it's a solid piece of advice.

Tornus: Of course it's tricky. Hands up everyone who has no shame about sex whatsoever.

Corey Allan: Oh, right.

Tornus: It's appropriate to have some of that. It's appropriate to have some amount of growth work.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Tornus: But if you're super ashamed of this, if you're unable to talk about it, maybe fix that before you start doing it.

Corey Allan: I love it. And that's kind of where one of the things I wrote down to kind of bring into this is that's where we differentiate the difference between awkwardness or some anxiety surrounding a conversation or an act versus actual shame and guilt. I think those are different.

Smartypants: Yeah.

Tornus: So I heard a really smart thing once. We were teaching a class and we were looking to rent a space, so we were talking to a guy who runs a yoga studio to see if we could use his yoga studio. And he runs a yoga studio. He does kids yoga classes there, it's kind of very spiritual space. And he is like, "Man, I don't know. I need to go think about this. I'll have some questions for you." And he came back afterwards. He was like, "Actually I've decided I just have one question. Do you feel clean about what you do?"

Tornus: And I thought that was really smart. Do you feel clean about the thing you want to do? Even if you've got some baggage around the edges. Or is it like, "This is a bad thing that I want to do."

Corey Allan: No, that's good because I think that's helping let people be empowered to explore some of the edges to then land, "Where do I really fit? Where am I whole? Or where is it really coming from goodness rather than some other aspects that's like, "Yeah. That's some stuff that probably needs to be explored a little more then."

Smartypants: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: And another thing that we do in our, I think it's in our very first class, the first of the Bondage For Beginners series is an exercise around saying no.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: Particularly a lot of women are really, it's a hard thing for them to say no. And that is especially if you're feeling pressured, like, "Oh that my partner really, really wants this." And it happens with men too. It's it's certainly not only among women. But we actually have an exercise where we practice saying no. And in more advanced classes, we practice asking questions that invite a no.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: So rather than, "Hey, you want to go on a date tonight, don't you?" It's, "I would like to go on a date with you to tonight. Let me know if you'd like that."

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: So both stepping up, again, goes back to communication, being comfortable with saying, "I don't like that. I'm not judging you for having that kink or that desire or that interest, but I'm not comfortable with that."

Corey Allan: Right.

Smartypants: And lots of people have also experienced trauma. And so being able to say, "That's a really hard one for me and it brings up lots of feelings. I don't want to do that." Or even in the moment.

Corey Allan: Right.

Tornus: And that's like, where are your nos, and learn how to say no. That's another really important skill. So much of this comes down to language.

Corey Allan: It sounds like it.

Smartypants: And talking about it. It's like, "Wow, y'all have been talking about kink for how long and we're still just talking about talking. Where's the fun stuff?"

Corey Allan: Yeah. But I think that's so important because what you're describing here is this idea of how do I separate out a relational indictment, if you will, because one person doesn't want to go on the date and therefore everything's bad, versus, "No, I wanted to and that's okay. My want to do that is okay."

Smartypants: Yeah.

Corey Allan: They didn't want to join me. So, you know what? If I had a particular restaurant I was really looking forward to eating that and they didn't want to join me, I could still go eat at that restaurant if I wanted to.

Smartypants: Right.

Corey Allan: That's kind of the separateness of who we are as individuals and our own power.

Smartypants: Yes.

Corey Allan: Okay. I think that's good. So if you are getting into a little bit deeper, after they've talked through this and they've kind of got some of the vernacular down, some of the more meanings that they've attached, are there ways that you can dip into it further with practice some different things, try some different things out on your own? Is it best to be coached? What is the next step? If you're talking about, Smartypants, we're just talking about talking here. Now let's talk about doing here for a moment.

Tornus: I think one thing I tell people is you can start very, very small. So maybe you're interested in bondage and you've seen 50 Shades of Gray and you've seen someone tied up and hanging from the ceiling. That was cool. You don't have to start there. You can just be like, "Hey, when we're having sex, could you grab my wrists and hold them over my head for a minute." That's a good starting point and then how did that feel? Do you want to do more of that? "Okay, I tried that and I don't need to do more of that." If you like having power over someone, "Hey, could I ask you to undress and tell you each step how I want you to do it?" It doesn't have to be shouting commands and a big complicated thing.

Corey Allan: Right.

Tornus: Just do it a little bit. Maybe do a little bit of spanking if you think, "Maybe I'd like to try some pain." Just little things, dial in slowly. You're hopefully going to be with this person for the rest of your life. You don't have to do every single thing tonight.

Corey Allan: It is a long game and it is something we venture further and further in as we go. And then we all kind of find somewhat a comfort zone, but then typically one person probably wants to keep pushing that, either slowly or strongly, as it goes. Okay.

Corey Allan: So before we wrap up this segment, I do have one thought that came to my mind because we talked about the idea of the safe word and all the idea of the communication, but there's also, because one of the things in some of the stuff I was coming across earlier in hearing you guys talk is, how do you guys incorporate some of the boundaries, if you will, that people may have and relationships may have when they're entering into this. Is there a difference between what we've talked about and that word because that's something I think that matters.

Smartypants: Oh yes. Most definitely. Could you answer?

Tornus: So one thing we talk about, some terminology we use, is the idea of limits. A limit is something I don't want to do.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Tornus: And it can be helpful to talk about a hard limit, which is I don't ever want to do that.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Tornus: "I don't ever want you to hurt me on purpose." Or a soft limit, which is, "I don't feel ready to be tied up. I don't think I would like that, but I'm not sure. I am open to having that conversation at some point in the future."

Corey Allan: Okay. That's also describing kind of how we get into this whole thing anyway, with sex, of "I think I want to test this out. I'm not quite sure yet, but give me a little bit of time to wrestle with it further."

Corey Allan: And then I think it's imperative, and I'd love to hear you guys' thought on this too, actually. What do you do with the person that's raring to go, wanting to keep pushing it, whereas their partner isn't? Because we've been talking about the one that isn't at this point in a lot of the ways because they do control some of the sway of what happens because if it's consensual participatory acts, you kind of have to have them on board.

Smartypants: Yeah. A key thing we tell people is it's better to end with everyone wanting more than to end a date or end a sex time having sex where people are like, "Oh, I wish I hadn't done that."

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: And particularly when people are new to this, there's so much enthusiasm and so much, if you're the higher desire partner as it were, you're like, "Oh my goodness, I really want to experience all the things I've been fantasizing about forever." And reminding him, "This is a long game." Start with a thing, and then if you and your partner, when you're done, you're both like, "Wow, I love that. I wish we hadn't stopped." That's where you want to be.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: That's the healthy place to, and then you try a little bit more next time.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Smartypants: But yeah, it's a hard one because there's.

Tornus: And again, just like sex, you may be in a marriage where one person really, really wants to have sex all the time and one person doesn't want to have much at all, and you can be loving, communicate well, but it's still going to be hard. That's a tough situation. I guessing that's a frequent topic on your show.

Corey Allan: Yeah. We try to tackle desire, differences multiple ways because it is one of those things that's unavoidable in marriages.

Smartypants: Yes, yep.

Corey Allan: Because one of you want something a little differently than the other and we usually see that as the wrong stance and a right stance. And just depends on which one you occupy as to what the label is.

Smartypants: Even if it's Chinese food. There is a difference there

Corey Allan: Now you're meddling, Smartypants. Okay, all right. So before we wrap up this segment, I would love for anybody that's listening in the Nation that wants to find more of you guys or anything else, how can they find you and what would be the easiest way?

Tornus: So we teach with an organization called Full Circle Kink. So fullcirclekink.com, and it lists our classes. It has some links to other information. You can also reach us just just tornus@fullcirclekink.com or smartypants@fullcirclekink.com.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Tornus: We love talking about this. We'd love to answer questions.

Corey Allan: Perfect. And I'll put all that information in the show notes so that way anybody that's listening to this while driving, don't write that down. That's dangerous work right there. Let's all be safe, but that'll be there. And so Tornus and Smartypants, I can't thank you enough for the conversation thus far and excited to have you spending one more segment with me after the break.

Tornus: Thank you for having us. It's been a pleasure.

Smartypants: Yes, definitely.

Corey Allan: Well, what stands out to me, Pam, is we all are somewhere on this continuum or journey when it comes to our sex lives and and our living in a vibrant life and exploring what it is I'm interested in and who I am in the explore exploration of it.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And I think the hope would be from the conversation with Tornus and Smartypants today, and the willingness that we've had all throughout the years of SMR is we need to have good conversations about some things. Even if it's like, "I'm not going to do that. I'm not." But at least we can be informed. And I think we're better off by making those kinds of decisions from good information of, "Yeah, this applies to me," or, "Nope, I'm glad I learned about it, but nope." Then we're still good that way.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because then you're really believing what you believe.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And that's what we want to have happen in marriages all across the globe.

Pam Allan: I agree.

Corey Allan: Is to help people enhance who they are, who they want to be, and have better conversations accordingly.

Corey Allan: Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone or you've got questions and you want more information, let us know (214) 702-9565 or feedback at sexymarriageradio.com. So wherever you are, however you took some time out today to spend it with us, thanks so much and we'll see you again next time.