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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

Feelings and Meanings #571

Join us at the Sexy Marriage Radio Getaway in Indianapolis, June 23-25, 2022 –

On the Regular version of today’s show …

A followup voicemail regarding episode #569 – what are some better questions and conversations starters to address difficult issues in marriage?

An email from a husband who’s wife experiences pain during sex, and while it’s better, how do they change things up a bit when there’s anxiety about possible pain?

On the Xtended version …

Pam and I discuss an email from a listener and their framework of where feelings come from. Which leads to the question, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Enjoy the show!

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Announcer: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio,

Corey Allan: Well, welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where each and every week we go where the nation wants to go. And one of the places we want the nation to go is to Indy in June 23rd to the 25th.

Pam Allan: Totally. Come join us and have some fun.

Corey Allan: Yep. Registration is still open. There are a few spots left. Love to have you join us. Fabulous four days together, three days together, four days with your spouse.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Or five or six if you want to come [crosstalk 00:00:40] or stay late.

Pam Allan: Your choice.

Corey Allan: Up to you. Get to hang out and meet a whole bunch of really cool couples. But is where you can join us. And where you can spread the word is you can jump on iTunes or Spotify or iHeartRadio. Rate and review the show, leave comments. Tell other people. Shout it from the mountain tops.

Pam Allan: Get the word out.

Corey Allan: And then here's how we help you. You let us know what's going on in your mind and in your world and in your struggles or your successes, or just your tips or your feedback to other people or other content that we had. Call us in (214) 702-9565. Email us at All the messages that come in do get read. Some of them make it on the air. If you leave a voicemail, you get to the front of the line, just inside baseball [crosstalk 00:01:32] information there.

Pam Allan: Cutters. Yep.

Corey Allan: But it's okay cutting.

Pam Allan: It's good cutting.

Corey Allan: So is that like in sports where it's not a foul if it's not called? You don't get called for cutting?

Pam Allan: We're telling them flat out, this is the rules. So here's where it is. It's our rules. We get to make them.

Corey Allan: Kind of like life, I wish sometimes, right? Where we could just entirely, "Well, no, all of this, it's just my rules. I'm just making it all up."

Pam Allan: I get a cut everywhere I guess.

Corey Allan: Hey, those of you in the England area with the queue, that's a whole different world.

Pam Allan: That is, sorry.

Corey Allan: When you're talking about cutting, I think you do dramatically get some feedback, it's different.

Pam Allan: Capital offense right there.

Corey Allan: Well, coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio, we got a voicemail that's come in to help, wanting some clarification on episode 569 from a couple weeks ago. And then a couple emails, depending on how much time we've got, that we will go further and deeper into. Just what's on tap with the questions from the nation there.

Corey Allan: And then on the extended content today, which is deeper, longer, and there are no ads, you can subscribe at We're going to look at the world of feelings. What's the process? There's a guy that's in the academy that's emailed in and he said, here's what I've figured out and what I think. What do you think on how this all unfolds?

Pam Allan: Well, that'll be fun.

Corey Allan: And so that's where we're heading today. All that's coming up on today's show.

Speaker 3: Hey Corey and Pam. I have a follow-up question from episode number 569 about the wife being fine was being fine. I know it was a long email with lots of stuff going on, but I was hoping you could be more specific with some of your answers regarding the husband having trouble communicating with his wife.

Speaker 3: A couple things stuck out to me. He said he lacks the ability to have conflict and communicate. And he said, he's never pushed any issue to say, "Honey, what's wrong?" Or "Let's talk about this." And he said one of his main challenges is that he's not clear with his verbal communication, that he has trouble speaking clearly and respectfully.

Speaker 3: In some of your responses, you said that he needed to ask better questions and have the more difficult conversations with his wife. And I was wondering, could you go back and give some specific examples of what maybe some of those better questions would be? And some examples of conversation starters, like some actual words to say for these examples? I think that getting conversations started and asking questions is one of the hardest things to do in marriage. And just so many people stop right there. We just freeze and don't have the conversations at all because we don't even know where to begin or find even a few words to get that going.

Speaker 3: So I'd love it if you guys could maybe circle back to this and give some examples of real actual questions and conversation starters. So thanks a lot as always. I love what you guys are doing here on the podcast. And I love being part of the SMR platform. Thanks guys.

Corey Allan: So 569 was the wife is fine with being fine, just like this caller's pointing out. Where she had no desire, no sexual desire for him even from the get-go, looking back at it. She realized it doesn't trigger that in her.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And so it boils down to, he gets caught up and he was the nice guy was the way he even framed it from some of the stuff he's heard from us on the show. That he's conflict avoidant, he has trouble bringing it up clearly. And if he does bluntly, he felt like he was unkind or is received as if it was unkind.

Pam Allan: Yeah. And from her side, she wants to want, but just [crosstalk 00:05:29].

Corey Allan: Right. So these are the dilemmas that we face in marriage that we can basically pull this out into a lot of different gridlock topics. Because a lot of them where we're blocked by what my partner wants or what my partner doesn't have that I wish they had for me. A question's not going to unlock that Rubik's cube, if you will. Because it's not a simple, "Oh, that was the magic piece that's missing for my lack of desire for you."

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Not usually.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Right?

Pam Allan: But we are saying start the conversations.

Corey Allan: Well, so to be specific on what she's asking, this caller's asking today, of what are some questions to ask and some conversations starters? Okay? To clarify 569, if you haven't heard it, jump back, listen to it and pick us up here where we are in this episode. But to clarify, most of the time, the best questions to ask are of myself first. How am I approaching what I'm dealing with better? How am I approaching what I'm seeing better? Because I think a lot of times what we do whenever I get some sort of pain point in my marriage, I immediately ask the person that I put at the root of the pain, which in this case is the wife's lack of.

Pam Allan: Well, I think my wife is the root of the pain.

Corey Allan: Well, and the way he's framed it ...

Pam Allan: Because, maybe. Well, go ahead. The way he's framed it, she is, yeah.

Corey Allan: Well, because it was missing something. And so those of us, because I think we've all tasted this to some degree where I want from my partner, what it is I feel for them. I want it in kind, right? I want them as turned on by me as ...

Pam Allan: I want from them, not for them. I want from them.

Corey Allan: Right. I thought maybe I didn't say that. I thought I [crosstalk 00:07:21].

Pam Allan: Well, I got confused. So I'm assuming someone else would get confused too.

Corey Allan: Fair enough. Yeah. But it's like, I want the same thing reciprocated back. I want to feel that same thing from them because that's how I show whatever it is that I'm into them. I want them to do the same, right? And so the framing we will often have is, why don't you have these feelings for me? It's reactive. Why couldn't you just do this? Why don't you want to be with me this way? Why don't you want ... It's those kinds of things, which a lot of times immediately puts a partner on the defensive, which is I think why the caller's asking, what's some better questions?

Corey Allan: So the first better questions are of myself. What do I do if I get a better picture of orienting towards, I'm with somebody that doesn't have sexual desire for me. Okay. What do I do with that? That doesn't have anything to do with them yet in the way I'm thinking of this. It's questions of me. Because then I think you can get into the nuances. They maybe don't have desire for me sexually, but do they respond to me? Do they get into it? Are they interested when it is going? Maybe that's a hurdle I just need to get past. And see it as wait, they are sexual with me. Yay. That's good.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: But a lot of times, unless I take the risk of asking those questions of myself first, I do blanket questions that I hope will solve it. Which is a lot of those, why don't you have this? What about that? It's trying to fix a problem.

Pam Allan: It's a lot of why don't you have this rather than what do we have?

Corey Allan: Right. And it's sometimes it's trying to fix a problem that my partner doesn't really want to fix either. Because for them to go down that path might require some serious growing of themselves and some serious struggles of themselves. And sometimes like, "I don't know if I want to do that."

Pam Allan: Not there, not ready. Other things are going on. I'm parenting, I don't want to do X, Y, Z.

Corey Allan: Or a theme we've had in a couple episodes now of coming to grips with the fact that I might have married for a different motivation than my partner did.

Pam Allan: True.

Corey Allan: Right? That I'm married to somebody that's, they're more interested in the stability and the consistency of living and the financial wherewithal we have. That's why they're here. Not for sex.

Pam Allan: True, true. Yeah, that can be it. But I think you've got a good point in that you've got to go ask yourself some specific questions. Like I shared before, mine was, and I'm sure I heard this from you on the show actually, but this is one that stuck with me was, would I want to be married to me?

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: And that really got me thinking about golly, would I? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to be married to me. And why is that? Why wouldn't I have wanted to be married to me? To dive into all kinds of things. And after that, then you and I could figure out a lot of other things. Because I had to figure out my part in this.

Corey Allan: But it also shows a different orienting towards a relationship rather than we're, either of us are just digging heels in. And saying, "No, that's just the way it is." That's basically tantamount to saying, "I give up. I don't care about you enough to seek what could be going on in me that's causing part of this issue with us."

Pam Allan: Well, "I don't care about you enough or I'm just so frustrated with it that I'm going to focus my efforts elsewhere."

Corey Allan: Right. I'm going to avoid the pain.

Pam Allan: Does that mean I don't care? I may care. But at this point I'm just whipped.

Corey Allan: Right. Right. And so if you can ask yourself the better questions first, then the conversation starters shift into gear where you're calling out the dynamic better.

Pam Allan: And so is it that you would start more after I talk to myself and you go into this next phase, I feel like we're pointing toward? Is it asking questions of the spouse? Or is it what you just said, I'm making statements of here's how I see where things are?

Corey Allan: Okay. So let's go with this. What you just disclosed on, would I want to be married to me? And the realization therein that you had was some of the parts of that was, "No. I might be too reactive to things. I could even be mean about some things." And so when you have these realizations, a conversation starter then becomes, "Hey, you know what, honey, I've realized I have helped create some timidity in you maybe, or some fear." Because that's what he talked about in 569 was he was the nice guy, so he would fumble over bringing stuff up. He would not be bold and confident about some things.

Corey Allan: So sometimes coming to her and say, "Hey, I realize some of this desire discrepancy we've got of what I have for you is not what you have for me. I've probably have contributed. I have contributed to that. I've not been something in a lot of ways that's really desirable. And I'm going to work towards that now. I'm going to own that." That's a whole different framework now.

Pam Allan: Absolutely it is.

Corey Allan: That it's basically just calling out myself in the context of us. And from our history, it's you coming to me and saying, "I realize I can be scary with my reaction sometimes."

Pam Allan: Yeah. And that just brings down barriers because now your spouse realizes whether they pinpointed it and they saw it themselves and just didn't bring it up. Or now that you're having some self-reflection and just bringing up what you're seeing in yourself, they may say, "Oh, you're exactly right. I hadn't even seen exactly what it was." But that potentially is a relief for them.

Corey Allan: Well, because the best conversation starters are the ones where we're not attempting to control the other side of the conversation.

Pam Allan: Meaning, tell them how they should act or what they should be.

Corey Allan: Or frame it in a question of, I need their buy-in.

Pam Allan: Good point.

Corey Allan: To help have this conversation. Because if I look at the entirety of our relational dynamic of the real pain points, most of the time my partner's communicated pretty clearly they don't want to talk about it or do anything about it. Either because they don't know, which can be legit, or they don't want to. So it's one or the other. So if you frame in 569 with this, the lack of sexual desire, if he's like, you know what, rather than asking the question of why don't you desire me this way, which can be harsh or unkind or reactive.

Pam Allan: Or it could make her feel like she's being harsh in her response and she doesn't want to be harsh.

Corey Allan: Sure. But if he comes at it with "I'm really struggling with trying to figure out what do I do with the dilemma of your lack of desire for me sexually? I'm really wrestling with what's my part, and how could I have colluded to help make this happen? I need to do different. And it's kind of scary." Now all of a sudden, I see if I got an ally in this or not.

Pam Allan: Gotcha.

Corey Allan: And a lot of times we don't take these kinds of risky stances because of that, they're risky.

Pam Allan: We're scared they're not going to be our ally.

Corey Allan: We might find data that I don't have a partner I thought I had. And I don't think that means the relationship ends, but it does put it in a much greater level of jeopardy of what do we do with this? Because again, most of these are not questions that we answered that then see our path forward. A lot of them in my thinking are getting a clearer picture of what's the real truth and the dynamic we are facing and its impacts on each of us. And what do I do in light of that?

Pam Allan: Yeah. What do I do with the response I get? What do I do with the lack of response I get?

Corey Allan: But as with everything with SMR, it starts with self first. And then you see and make the moves to see where your partner is alongside you.

Corey Allan: The art of marriage is really the art of keeping up to date with your partner, of staying on track with your own and each other's life goals as they emerge, exist and change. It's about supporting each other and staying connected emotionally, intellectually, physically, and spiritually. Marsha Berger, LMFT.

Corey Allan: A great marriage doesn't happen by accident. Deeper connection with your spouse doesn't happen by accident either. Have you reached the point in your marriage where there's a slow creep of discontent or disconnect? When was the last time you talked with your spouse about anything other than the schedule, work or kids? What if there was a way to be reminded on a weekly basis to touch base with your spouse?

Corey Allan: The state of our union helps you remember and discover what brought you together in the first place. It's a tool designed to help couples keep the important from being replaced by the immediate. Plus, this works from your own phone, 52 reminders, deepen your conversation, dream and plan together. Go to Connect on a deeper level today.

Corey Allan: So an email that came in from a brand new listener, Pam, so they've only heard a few episodes thus far. "So my wife and I, they've been married for seven years. Sex has been such a point of contention between us. She has a very low drive. It appears nonexistent sometimes. While I feel like I could do it every day. On our wedding night, my wife showed zero enthusiasm on our way to the hotel for us to finally have sex. We were both virgins. That night she experienced lots of pain during intercourse, and we settled for oral stimulation and both reached orgasm that way."

Corey Allan: "For months, we couldn't have intercourse because of this. And it wore on me so much. I started to turn to porn to cope with all these negative emotions and unmet expectations that had been dangled in front of me for years. I have a sponsor and I've had counseling and mentors and I'm making real progress now. I do have the occasional relapse, but I continue to move forward. And I've learned to deal with the emotions better. My wife also doesn't experience pain in such a severe way anymore, but all we can really do is missionary position. And our sex life seems really dull and flavorless."

Corey Allan: "My wife doesn't really thinks about sex much. And sometimes I feel like it's all I think about. She has said that it's because of my past porn use that it does hinder her some. She says it's not by anything I've done in bed. She's actually said I'm very patient with her pain. And she says, not bragging or anything, but I'm an incredible lover. She does orgasm at least once when we make love. So it's not for lack of pleasure. She's just not a sexually-minded person. And I don't know how to help her."

Corey Allan: "In terms of variety, every time we try another position, she says it feels like I'm poking something inside her or even hitting her bladder. She wants to have more variety in our sex life, but it's just hard with the physical pain. If I took a guess, I'd say it's the super strict religious upbringing paired with my past failures and then the pain. It all seems impossible to overcome. We've prayed about this for all so long. And it's just seems so hopeless. I realize there's a lot here. And my thoughts are all over the place. Welcome to my brain. Hope you can help us. With much love, a desperate couple."

Corey Allan: So this has a lot of similarity to what we just talked about in some regards. But also to themes we've had, and throughout a lot of episodes. You had a reaction at one point, I'm curious.

Pam Allan: My reaction was to the, "I don't know how to help her." Like she's broken because she's someone who doesn't think about sex a whole lot.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: And my response to that is, neither does this person right here who's talking. I don't think about it all the time. I'm a co-host on this show. Never has that been something that I think about all the time. So you might want to just get used to her not thinking about sex all the time. But she's responsive to you. She's not going to have a level that you're going to have. And so do some honing of your expectations as to why would she need to think about sex all the time?

Corey Allan: Right. And this, again, this ...

Pam Allan: I'm getting on a pedestal here.

Corey Allan: Now this goes into [crosstalk 00:19:51].

Pam Allan: On something that's not really [crosstalk 00:19:52].

Corey Allan: I'm going to knock you off your soapbox with this.

Pam Allan: Yeah, please do. Please do.

Corey Allan: This goes into what we were talking about earlier of, I want to receive from my partner. I want them to interact with the topic the same manner I do. That's how I show love. But in actuality, that's fusion, that's mine meld, that's board collective, right? Where it's one brain. And it's, no, it's not. We are two different people, uniquely, wonderfully made with varying degrees of things, higher, lower. That's the way we frame it here at SMR.

Corey Allan: But I mean, the two things that jump out is that idea of the super religious upbringing can be playing a factor because that is something where it's something that yes, you can be excited about it, which he obviously was going into their honeymoon and their wedding night. She probably was more anxious about it than excited.

Pam Allan: Which makes it hard and can be painful.

Corey Allan: And again, we got to get into looking at these things of the way these manifest within ourselves is similar. It's the meaning I attach to it. I can feel all butterflies and anxious about something and I'm excited for it. She could feel butterflies and anxious about something and she's terrified of it. And some of it is I think legit from some of the women I've worked with where there's some serious fear about the first penetration possibilities of, "I don't even like putting a tampon in when I was younger. So I don't even want to imagine a penis going inside me."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Which immediately then restricts blood flow, restricts the tension.

Pam Allan: Clenching up.

Corey Allan: You start clenching, yes. And so there's some struggle that just can happen. And that's why a lot of people like them, when all a sudden you can have sex, it's not a great experience at first. Because you didn't figure out how to relax. And not that that solves it all. There is physical pain that's not just anxiety based.

Pam Allan: Right. Obviously, if she's having some pain, back to the whole step one, have you talked to a doctor? I mean, if there is recurring pain, go get that checked out, go to your OB and make sure that you're running in smooth order before you go check out, well, is this mental?

Corey Allan: Yeah. Because what this does is when you have a painful experience, particularly at the beginning, then you now all of a sudden face the fact of anticipated pain every time there's the possibility again. And so some of that, if it's not a physical thing where an OB and a doc has cleared you, it's like there's no real clear signals that this is a biological physical thing. Then it becomes, how do you make sure you've got plenty of lubrication? How you make sure you're well warmed up. Because a lot of times couples when they're first starting, because of naivete, they go for intercourse too soon. She's not ready yet. She's not fully engorged and fully lubricated, which is the best inviting environment. Because if she's not, it's going to be.. Dryness is painful.

Pam Allan: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: So recognizing that, anticipated anxiety, anticipated pain, how do you just calm yourselves down? How do you talk through it, release some of these expectations? But then the other, I want to talk about some positions that are possible because he ended it with the idea of how do we change it up?

Pam Allan: Yeah. Only missionary's good for her.

Corey Allan: Right. "Because I sometimes I feel like you're hitting my bladder." One thing you mentioned with your little soapbox of the idea of a sexually-minded person, because I wrote this down as I was preparing for this. What if she doesn't want to be a sexually-minded person? But she's a person that has sex and actually enjoys it and really gets into it. Does that mean she's not sexually minded? It's like what you were describing of, wait, what is it that makes it so different if I don't think about it like you do? What makes that so bad?

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Or wrong or hurtful, if you will?

Pam Allan: Yeah. I guess I would want to ask some questions too. When they go out on a date, they know they have an anniversary or whatever, does she dress in a certain way for you? Does she dress in a manner that maybe she wants to look nice for you or sexual? Or does she wear undergarments? I think for a lot of ladies that is their way of, I want to look attractive. I want to look becoming for leading on to other things, being sexual things. But that's not perceived by the spouse as something that equates to thinking about sex. So it might be worth looking at some of the things that she actually does and maybe her way of being sexual or thinking about sex is just a different thing than what he thinks. Or what he would desire or what he's seen in movies or in porn or whatever.

Corey Allan: Right. No. Obviously there's a lot of different things that have gone on in this, that add to the emotional chargeness either in a good way or a bad way. Right? The upbringing, the porn use, those are things we got to reorient ourselves on what do I do with a partner that does this? Or that has this struggle? Or there's the possibility, because anytime couples have experienced pain during intercourse, there's always in the back of both of your minds, is this one going to hurt?

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right? So that's why it's harder than to change up positions too. Because you find a reliable one, or a majority of the time it's reliable. Why do I want to get really adventurous? I don't want to do something where you go too deep, because that could hurt even more. Because sometimes again, a woman needs to warm up because if an average sized male in an erect penis enters into the vagina all the way in, in a normal average space of a vagina, if she's not engorged, the cervix has not lifted up and out of the way. And so when you do full thrust, you can hit her cervix, which can hurt too. That's not the vaginal tightness, which is akin to vaginismus or some of that pressure and pain that comes. That's the deep inside, her genitalia pain.

Corey Allan: But when she gets engorged, it actually lifts that thing, the cervix lifts up and out of the way. Which is a cool, cool feature of the design. I mean, who could tell me there's not somebody behind this whole thing? Right? So if you're just looking at making sure you're taking your time and then you can look at some of the different positions that help you control depth. And more importantly help her control depth.

Pam Allan: True.

Corey Allan: Right? Because then she gets to take some power of this thing.

Pam Allan: Well, and there's some things she can do with her hands on him that help with that. Right. Put her hand even while he's inserting, put her hand at the base to help control the depth maybe?

Corey Allan: That puts a natural block.

Pam Allan: And then she can do some stuff with her hands on him as well at the same time, right? Get some fingers down there, wrapped around, back behind things.

Corey Allan: So there's a lot of different things that we can do that... I mean, we've been proponents of, if you want to change up missionary position while you start in missionary position, at some point during the intercourse act, raise up on your knees. All of a sudden you're in a different position. She stays where she is. You shift your body. That's one different position right then and there. It's a whole lot simpler, that's not a dramatic, "Whoa, hold on, what are you doing?" Because you can even do that while still inserted in her.

Corey Allan: But then some of the other ones that you can control the depth a lot easier just because the angles, spooning is one, unless you slide around more for rear injury. But if you're spooning, it changes the angle. Her sitting in your lap is one that you can't get full insertion that way, unless you lean back. You got to position yourself differently. But then the other one too, which we've talked about, just alluded to, is just her on top because then she gets to have the control. And this is one where you don't grab her hips and make her move. You let her take charge with it and you find a rhythm. And then the big key I would say about any position you have where you're facing each other, look each other in the eye while you're having the moments of trying something new.

Pam Allan: Oh definitely.

Corey Allan: Right? Calm yourself down. Be courageous. See it in each other. Be scared. See it in each other. It's okay. It's all part of this, the depth and the profoundness of what happens when we grow as sexual beings together.

Pam Allan: And that gives her a cleaner way of communicating to him if there's something wrong. Right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Does it hurt?

Corey Allan: But it also gives ways to show confidence of, this is good.

Pam Allan: Right. This doesn't hurt.

Corey Allan: I'm good. We're good. Because again, this is that, a lot of times couples that have had painful intercourse experiences, in the back of both their minds is the, can I trust what I'm seeing? Will this last? And for her too, can I trust that this will last? Can I stay relaxed enough?

Pam Allan: So not just even looking at each other it's, if he sees a face that he's not sure about, or ask her, "Honey, are you okay? We good? Do I need to change something?"

Corey Allan: And so realize this is disruptive at times. So what. So is trying to go into it anyway. We're just bigger proponents with SMR of, claim the disruption better, and then navigate accordingly. If you were just listening to the regular content today, it may not make sense. But in the extended content, when we're talking about feelings, where they come from. We wanted to find that song, "Feelings."

Pam Allan: "Nothing more than feelings."

Corey Allan: There are a lot of different versions of that thing out there or remakes and covers of that.

Pam Allan: God, it's like 50 different versions.

Corey Allan: But it's so funny how you hear a word and that's the immediate thing that comes to my mind is that song, Feelings.

Pam Allan: Yeah, mine too.

Corey Allan: And I immediately in my mind singing that song.

Pam Allan: I know.

Corey Allan: And tell me how marriage isn't complicated in life, does it get complicated? When that's what's going on when something happens and immediately we relate it to something. And yet I'm married to somebody else that relates it to something else.

Pam Allan: Right. Right, right.

Corey Allan: Man, and then I try to do sex with that person? Whoo.

Pam Allan: I'm telling you, whoo.

Corey Allan: It could be really good or whoo, it could be really rough. This was Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone, please let us know, (214) 702-9565. Or We'll see you next time.