Announcer You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, SMRnation.com.

Corey Allan: Well, welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio where once again, my wife is grooving to the new intro music.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: It's not good radio. People can't see it.

Pam Allan: I like to slow groove.

Corey Allan: Well, this is Sexy Marriage Radio, where each and every week we try to jump on the air and help the Nation just enhance what's going on in their married life, and we believe that the best sex happens in the marriage bed. And we want everybody to feel the vibrancy of passionate marriage-

Pam Allan: Yes, we do.

Corey Allan: ... and engaged lives because, man, we're in a world that has a lot going on, and it's pretty easy to get distracted and lose focus and intentionality-

Pam Allan: Or just get tired. You're just so tired, you can't even deal.

Corey Allan: Says the woman putting in really, really, really long days with tax season. Yep, I totally get it.

Pam Allan: It's all good. It's all good.

Corey Allan: Well, it's-

Pam Allan: It's all a matter of perspective.

Corey Allan: It absolutely is, and there's stuff that we know that's going on. I mean, there's stuff that wars against our attention, and so what we want to try to do is just point back towards each other and point back towards better engagement with your own life and then what you hold dear and what you're hoping to accomplish.

Corey Allan: So one of the ways we can do this is you let us know what's going on because it's a dialogue that happens here on the show. 214-702-9565 is our voicemail line.

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Corey Allan: And we also want to have you join us in Indianapolis, June 23rd to the 25th. This is just a quick little friendly reminder that the deadline for the early bird registration is a month away, April 15th.

Corey Allan: So if you want to take advantage of the cheaper registration rate, do so now. SMRnation.com/getaway is where you can find more and save your spot. Well, coming up on today's regular free version and the extended version, which we're putting all together today because-

Pam Allan: Oh, yeah, [crosstalk 00:02:49].

Corey Allan: ... the content is really good in the sense that it's not talked about enough. It's more prevalent than a lot of people believe. We've talked about this before in the history of SMR.

Pam Allan: What is it? What's talked about?

Corey Allan: I'm kind of teasing out the topic.

Pam Allan: I know.

Corey Allan: I'm getting-

Pam Allan: You're killing me.

Corey Allan: ... ready to land, and see, look at that. That's showmanship, baby. J Parker joins me today, who's a blogger, podcaster, speaker, author, and one of the things she's really ended on is the world of the higher desire wife.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And so she joins me for a conversation, and it's something that we want to give a lot of time to spend kind of exploring and discussing how she is seen this whole aspect and dynamic unfold in the work that she does and the interactions she has with higher desire women. She has a platform that she's created just for that.

Corey Allan: And so this is an in-depth dialogue that we had on just what she's seen and some pointers that she had. So we want to make the whole show available today because it's worth honoring what's not talked about a lot. And there's a lot of times where women we've had that email in, and they feel like they're the only ones if they're in the higher desire category.

Pam Allan: Yeah, that's been a common communication into the phones or email with women saying, "I'm higher desire. What do you have for me?"

Corey Allan: Right. "What do I do? I feel- "

Pam Allan: "Give me some episode numbers."

Corey Allan: ... "I feel like a unicorn," and you're not a unicorn, but there are some interesting dynamics that are at play, and it's different when a woman is the higher desire. And so that's what we talk about today, and all that's coming up on today's show.

Corey Allan: Well, it is a honor and a privilege any time I get a chance to have somebody join me on the show that is walking down the same or similar path that I do in a lot of ways. And so J Parker is joining me again for Sexy Marriage Radio today, an author, a speaker; she podcasts.

Corey Allan: She used to do blogging back when that's what we would do. But the words that J produces are the kinds that, I mean, man, your site called Hot, Holy, and Humorous that-

J Parker: Yes, that's the name of the site and my whole ministry.

Corey Allan: Perfect, because that's what you kind of sprinkle in a lot of what we can be that life can and is all the way through, and you've always had a knack in doing that well, J, and so I'm-

J Parker: Oh, thank you.

Corey Allan: ... excited to have you back on the show to go into a particularly not talked about enough subject, but it is actually one that's more prominent than we often realize, right?

J Parker: Yeah. Yeah, so I have been talking more and more in the last few years about higher desire wives.

Corey Allan: Yep.

J Parker: And-

Corey Allan: And that's where I want to go because that's the one thing that we keep coming across. As far as the SMR Nation goes, I'll get these emails that come in.

Corey Allan: And one, wives that fit this category, if you will, they think they're unicorns and anomalies because among their little peer group, typically, or their Bible study or whatever group they're a part of, they are the only one, it seems like, but it's really not that unique as far as that numbers go and what research shows. What have you found too?

J Parker: Yeah, I've been looking into that, just how prevalent it is for higher desire wives. And you see numbers all the way across the spectrum.

J Parker: I've seen everything from 10% to 50%. But honestly, when I really look at a lot of the research, it seems to me probably about 15 to 20% of marriages are currently.

J Parker: Now, some of that may be changing also. I think that it's more prevalent in younger marriages.

Corey Allan: Okay.

J Parker: So [crosstalk 00:06:43].

Corey Allan: Have an idea why?

J Parker: Yeah. Well, I think, honestly, that virtual experiences have a lot to do with that, just generally virtually experiences. And so whether that's gaming or online pornography or just the way relationships are often kept alive through texting and social media and things like that, I think that the pace of that and the experience of that can make interacting with a real life person a little more difficult.

J Parker: And I think a lot of women get beyond that because we tend to be a little more relational. We tend to make friendships a little more easily and all of that, and so for men, I think it can be a little more difficult to get past those virtual experiences. And anyway, [crosstalk 00:07:45].

Corey Allan: That's interesting because I'm sitting here thinking this through, and it makes complete sense because there's this element of, I think generally speaking and stereotypically speaking in some ways... And I know we're going to probably have to land in that. Let me go ahead and put the little appendix out there of, hey, this is a stereotypical conversation we're having that's there's always exceptions to every situation.

J Parker: Oh, yeah. You always say, check with your spouse.

Corey Allan: Right, but it is one of those that I can see it as women, when it comes to social media and their different virtual avenues or mediums, largely probably have more of a bent towards it's relationally driven.

Corey Allan: It's connecting to people. It's keeping up with what's going on.

Corey Allan: There's a relational bent to it, but if you add in the component of gaming, which I don't know the size of male versus female of users in that regard of who really is participating and consuming online gaming in a lot of ways. But I know it's largely more male bent.

J Parker: It is more male. I don't know what the percentages are either, but-

Corey Allan: Adolescent male particularly.

J Parker: But I've raised two sons.

Corey Allan: Well, I'm raising one, and he spends his time on the games. He's connecting with his friends while he's playing the games.

Corey Allan: But I don't think the primary driver is to connect with his friends while he is playing. I think that's a benefit or a bonus, where it could be that might be flipped with women as you're describing, of maybe there's this bent of, "I'm going to get on to connect and relate and all of that, more so than conquer or rule," or whatever a particular game might be.

J Parker: And I think that men tend to be more driven toward online experiences that change often, that shift often, so gaming does that. And I know obviously, online pornography is a huge problem.

J Parker: And it used to be that you had to seek it out. Now, you have to block it out.

J Parker: And so there are just a lot of people raised just having been exposed, whether they sought it out or not, but then it can just happen that you're seeing all kinds of different experiences. And just the kinds of things that men do online, I think, tend to give a lot of variety and all those kinds of dopamine hits in your brain reward center. You're the psychologist. I-

Corey Allan: No, I got you. You're doing great.

J Parker: ... took one course that talked about dopamine, but you can fill in anything I get wrong. But I just think all those kinds of things do lend themselves to some men, younger men, maybe just not having the same kind of understanding and expectations.

J Parker: And so they get into a sexual situation, and it doesn't have those same dopamine highs. You actually have to do it for a while for her to get excited.

J Parker: You have to engage for a while. Sex is very gratifying, but it's not instant gratification.

Corey Allan: Right, and the flip side of that coin, and I think this is in every situation, there is an element of a sexual encounter has certain levels of anxiety and even fear or unknown that can come along with it, particularly early on, because it's like, I don't know what I'm getting into with this. I don't know what was depicted, or what I thought growing up is not at all what actually is, in some ways.

Corey Allan: Granted, there's still a penis and a vagina, and we kind of know the inner workings, but I don't know the person of who that is. And they don't know who they are, and there's exposure to it.

Corey Allan: And so I can see a lot of times, and this is the thing that I keep coming across with men, is recognizing the fears they can have when it comes to their sexuality and their sex drive and how it actually plays out. And a lot of times, men will have more of a tendency, if I have a chance or a likelihood of failure in something, I will avoid it. And so therefore, if it's anxiety provoking, and it could be an unsatisfactory, well, why would I have a higher desire to want to go after it?

J Parker: Right. I think that's a big aspect, and a lot of times, when you start talking about this subject, and people say things like, "Well, you can just flip the advice," but you really... Yeah.

Corey Allan: You really can't.

J Parker: You really can't. There are some things that there are similarities for sure between higher drive husbands and higher drive wives, but there are these aspects that are kind of different of how we take those things in. So I don't know many wives who say that they're not interested in sex because they don't think they're a good lover.

J Parker: They feel like they'll figure it out, or their husband's just going to be interested anyway or whatever, but I think that's a big part for men. And I also think just generally media has played a big part in that for the younger generations because again, I'm in my fifties, so I'm Gen X.

J Parker: And when I was growing up, the TV just stopped at midnight. There was no more TV.

J Parker: And even then, there were only four or five channels, and a lot of it was stuff aimed at my parents. I mean, I wasn't going to be watching the nightly news or something, whereas now, there's 24 hours of TV shows, movies, videos, everything.

J Parker: And so where it used to be that even if sex was unrealistically depicted in just a basic TV show, that was still only an hour or two of a day, and you had many other interactions with people to balance that. And now, your whole sense of what sex is like could come from a whole bunch of TV shows that show things like, well, it takes her two seconds to get aroused.

J Parker: Or for higher drive wives, what we've seen is he's always interested, or if you even expose the bare shoulder, he's raring to go. And those things are not accurate.

Corey Allan: Right, so then it comes down to, I guess probably one of the best ways we can have this dialogue to help the people that it impacts the most because this is both sides of the equation too, right?

J Parker: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And this is probably how we're going to try to dovetail it on what you just mentioned, but you can't just flip the advice. You can... And tell me if I'm off on it, because you're the one that's more versed in this with some of the work you've done and are doing right now than I am, absolutely.

Corey Allan: Some of the advice that I can think of immediately that the dynamics are still at play is the higher desire person, male or female, is still responsible for a majority of the initiation component because they're the ones that are interested in it more. So it's the same dynamic of, "Well, if I just don't initiate, my lower desire partner will."

Corey Allan: No, probably not. They might, but that's not a fail safe. But what are some of the things that we can't just flip, that we need to talk specifically about when it comes to who is the higher drive?

J Parker: Well, I think how to initiate is different for sure. So there's a lot of advice given to higher desire husbands about how they can build a lot of foreplay throughout the day, and they can set the stage, and they can invite her, and they can also tend to be a little more assertive in initiation, whereas a lot of higher desire wives, they've been acclimated to this idea that he initiates.

J Parker: And so it's a lot harder to get the gumption up, and then she'll maybe do a lot of clues and hints, and you're a guy. How well do you pick up on all the hints that your wife [crosstalk 00:15:59]?

Corey Allan: It's too subtle. Yeah, it's too subtle. It's blowing right past.

J Parker: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Yep.

J Parker: And so there are plenty of guys who are like, "Wait, what? You were initiating sex? I didn't know that's what that was."

J Parker: And so I do think that higher desire wives have to learn a different way of initiating. And they also have to do it in such a way that honors his manhood, because I think that if you then just start trying to become the person who's going to, "Well, I'm just going to initiate like a guy would," well, some guys will respond to that in ways that it just makes them feel a little less masculine, and so I think you have to figure out that way to do it where flirtation, but very obvious flirtation, can be a good thing.

J Parker: Also, one of the things that really made a difference in my marriage, and I actually have a blog post about this, is flipping that switch from initiation to availability, so this idea of just saying, "Hey, I'm really interested in being with you tonight, and I just want you to let you know I'm available." And that can kind of say it's a way of initiating, but it really kind of also puts it over into his court so that he can be part of making that happen.

Corey Allan: Okay, and this is built on the idea of, he's not a real low desire. He still has quite a bit.

J Parker: Well, yeah, he has desire. Sure.

Corey Allan: Right. He still has some interest there, because I come across dynamics where it's the husband that is a low... It's not a no desire, but it is really low, and my immediate thought is availability. He knows that in some regards already. Maybe, maybe not.

J Parker: Yeah, but what I find is that if he knows that she's generally interested, and then she comes around and starts to initiate, some lower drive husbands read that as pressure, where if you just say, "Hey, I'm available tonight. I would really like to tonight," then that's saying, "I'm asking for this. I want to do it, but I'm not pressuring you."

Corey Allan: Okay. At least I'm not coming on to you with-

J Parker: I know these are some nuances.

Corey Allan: ... a lot of pressure because there is this element of, there's always pressure, and that's my belief, because I think most couples try to think that we can thread the needle of, I can take away the pressure of the dynamic, and I don't think you can because it's just a known quandary between the two people involved, regardless of what role you're playing.

J Parker: But don't you think the pressure can be increased or decreased somewhere?

Corey Allan: Absolutely. Yeah, you could get it to a point where, I mean, if you think of it like a bell curve, the extremes are the parts where we want to avoid and it's not going to happen in a lot of things, but we stay in the middle.

Corey Allan: And we got a lot of play area in that, actually, that some, it's just the natural dynamic. Some can be, "Yeah, I came on too strong there," or, "Yeah, I failed in how that went," because this is the way it goes, I think.

Corey Allan: Whoever is the instigator of an encounter, if it fails, sometimes I can instigate it in a way that almost it's preconceived it's going to fail because it's the way I came about it. But I can blame her or him as, "Yeah, but you're never... "

Corey Allan: And like, yeah, hold on. There's something else that's going on here.

J Parker: And that's kind of the difference, I think, we're talking about here is that how you go about it and what's going to get a "no" is going to be a little bit different for a lower drive wife and a lower drive husband.

Corey Allan: Okay.

J Parker: Now, there are some similarities. There are plenty of lower drive husbands who really want more relational stuff, who really want more romance, who want those kinds of things to build up, so that's certainly out there.

J Parker: But I think there are also plenty of situations where that kind of stuff will work very well with a lower desire wife, just really investing in all the other things that make her feel loved before you engage, and I think though for some lower drive husbands, it can be a little bit different. What might get a "no" is doing a whole bunch of, "Hey, I did all this romance and all this," because he immediately feels like, "This is about sex."

J Parker: Or it's just not something that speaks to him. It's not the thing that speaks to him. And so to trying to find out what that thing is that speaks to him, and so sometimes, this availability thing can speak to him sort of being her hero, as in, "Hey, I really desire you. I would really like this.

J Parker: "I'm available. I really want you to come into this space. And you know I want it more than you do, but I'm available for you to come be my hero and do that with me." [crosstalk 00:21:04].

J Parker: That might speak to someone out there. Let's hope it does.

Corey Allan: No, I think it would, and again, the word that you touched on earlier is this is nuanced in it, right?

J Parker: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because we can't be broad brush of, "Hey, all you higher desire wives out there, here's step one. Here's step two. Here's step three."

J Parker: If only, right?

Corey Allan: Yeah. I can't do that for higher desire husbands either.

J Parker: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Corey Allan: Right? Because it's too nuanced, and it's too unique to the people that are involved in the situations that are involved because you try at one point of being, "Hey, I'm available," and it worked really, really well. And then you try it again a couple weeks later or a month or two later, and it bombs horribly because there's other circumstances involved.

Corey Allan: It's not just [crosstalk 00:21:49] in the way we do life like that. So I think it's just kind of recognizing, how do each of us recognize the nuance of my situation, how I've gone about this in ways that have been close to good or good.

Corey Allan: How have I gone about this in ways that have just not been good? I have come on too strong.

Corey Allan: It has been too pressured. I haven't handled rejection well, because that's the other question I want to ask you: Women, in this dilemma of the higher desired wife, do they handle and deal with rejection differently than when a male is the higher desire?

J Parker: I believe they do because the vast majority of the culture says that if a woman isn't all desirable, she will be desired by her husband, and so when her husband rejects her, not only is it that moment of feeling rejected in the relationship, but she immediately goes to, "What's wrong with me?"

Corey Allan: Okay.

J Parker: So I've more often heard from higher desire husbands that when their wives don't engage, they think, "What's wrong with her?", which maybe is not entirely true. But I've often heard that.

J Parker: "Why doesn't she want this?", whereas higher desire wives tend to immediately go to, "What's wrong with me? Why doesn't he want me?"

J Parker: And then the next thing that a lot of higher desire wives do is try to amp up their sensuality and sexuality and make it more obvious and do the things that are suggested. Go get yourself the sexy lingerie and strut and whatever and flirt.

J Parker: And then when that fails, you're even worse into the, "What is wrong with me?" And so many women immediately start thinking that there's something wrong with their body.

J Parker: There's something wrong with how they come across, so I think they take it... Well, both of them take it personally. I was about say they take it personally, but of course, higher desire husbands take it personally when they're rejected [crosstalk 00:24:13].

Corey Allan: Absolutely, and I think-

J Parker: That's the whole point.

Corey Allan: I think context matters because I think you can do some one-offs with husbands in this dilemma of, "Well, why would she not want this?" And it's more focused on the reject of her doing. But I think what I've experienced and what I hear from clients and listeners is, when there's a long season of rejections, it does start to get into the, "Well, what's wrong with me?"

J Parker: Yes.

Corey Allan: And I think, again, this is that undercurrent or overt that we all live within that this should be happening in our marriages, that there should be sex going on, that the husband should be the one leading the charge in it, that if she's going to be serving and honoring and want it too... And there's so many different components that we have to really poke holes and challenge a lot of these beliefs, because if I was to kind of put one word that comes to my mind as I think through our conversation thus far, J, is this is just really trying to reexamine beliefs based on the situation you find yourself in of, "I got to examine, okay, wait, what if there's actually nothing wrong with me that I want this more than my spouse?

Corey Allan: "What if there's nothing wrong with that? What do I do with it?"

Corey Allan: That can change everything rather than, "Well, there's something wrong with me," because then I got to go find the solution about whatever it is wrong. And that's what marketing wants.

J Parker: Well, and you've probably seen the research too that says that couples who anticipate challenges as part of sexual intimacy together just weather them better. And if you have these expectations that you're just going to get married, and everything's going to be swimmingly terrific, and you're going to be matched, and you live happily ever after in the bedroom, then you're not prepared.

J Parker: Now, I know some people are dealing with extreme challenges, sexless marriages, and that's of a different ilk. But it's normal to have some differences in drive, and it's normal for that to be the wife.

J Parker: It's not necessarily the typical. If just take the typical, it's not going to be that.

J Parker: But if you're saying even 15% of marriages, that's one in six marriages, or, as I've talked about, about 15% of people in the United States have green eyes.

J Parker: I have green eyes. I have never had anyone say, "Whoa, that is so weird, your green eyes." So why do we think that it's abnormal that there will be situations where she wants it more than he does?

Corey Allan: Right. Right, so then it just comes down to, I guess, what are the best things she can do to put herself in a situation that present the most opportunity that allow her to honestly seek what it is she's interested in and express that in manners that's not too much but not too little? I mean, that's kind of the plight of all of us, regardless of topic, in some ways, so when you're thinking through this still, what are some of the other nuances that jump out, if there are, when it comes to this kind of a dilemma for a wife?

J Parker: So I think one of the things that I found is so important is that not feeling alone, understanding that it's normal, and I think that embracing that to begin with is key and then figuring out what to do next.

J Parker: And then when you start looking at the nuances, I think that the reasons for why a wife has a very low drive and the reasons for why a husband has a very low drive can be different. And so once you start looking at those reasons, then you can start figuring out where to go from there.

J Parker: So like I said, I don't know if there have been anybody ever written me to say, "You know what? I can't get my wife to stop gaming and make love with me."

J Parker: But I do hear that from wives. Also, I know some people will say, "Oh, well, if he's got a low drive, it must be low testosterone."

J Parker: Okay, that actually can be true, so that is something that should be checked. And you're not usually going to have that happening with a wife, but that's not usually what it is. But some of the other reasons that he might, and I think that we overlook this a lot, stress is a big one-

Corey Allan: Huge.

J Parker: ... in men, huge, and I think in particular the way that men experience stress, particularly in their middle ages. So there are a fair number of women who were not the higher drive spouse but became so as they aged.

J Parker: And I think a lot of that is that men reach this certain level with their careers and their families and their households that they, being men, built how they are, feel an enormous amount of responsibility that weighs down on them. And they can get very focused on being the provider and taking care of all these things and future-focused.

J Parker: And all of that weighs heavy as stress. It's a different kind of stress than lower desire wives face, which often surrounds more raising the kids and taking care of all the things... The family calendar-

Corey Allan: Yeah, it's managing.

J Parker: ... as I call it.

Corey Allan: It's managing. It's managing everything that's going on in a lot of ways, yeah.

J Parker: Yeah, but I think a lot of times, men also just soak in that stress and keep it to themselves, and so their wives don't even know how much stress they're carrying and how much that is impacting their ability to engage sexually, so I don't know if you've seen that-

Corey Allan: No, I think that-

J Parker: ... but I'm curious to know if you saw that with clients.

Corey Allan: Yeah, I think that's an important component because a lot of what is going on. And some of this I think probably applies to both genders that are the lower desire, if it's the husband or the wife, that the thresholds to get to where there's drive or sexual arousal, sexual pinging, if you will, in the body or even in the brain are higher to meet when you've got a lot of stress because there's just a lot of layers that are getting in the way of it.

Corey Allan: The brain is just flooded with cortisol in a lot of ways that it just tamps everything down, and so sexual desire to get through that is harder. And so that's why a lot of times, what I've come across that I really do love about the framework of spontaneous versus responsive drives or desires, which is similar verbiage to higher desire, lower desire, that the responsive desire sometimes has to respond to something, which that just means it's a decision to interject yourself into a situation where your body might catch up to it.

Corey Allan: So you put yourself in the environment, and you see where, again... I'm just saying this to you in real time, I guess, as we're talking... there's an element, I think, for men, if we go back to the conversation we had earlier, of, "If I have a chance I might fail at it, I have more likelihood of avoiding it. I don't know if I want to decide in a situation I'm not interested in and just show up and see what might happen," because to men, if I can't get an erection, it's a failure rather than I've got other things that can still bring about pleasure for me and for her, her most importantly, regardless of if my penis works or not in the manner I'm hoping it does. And so it's coming to grips with, where is my identity when it comes to who I am as a man, as a lover, as whatever in that moment?

J Parker: Yeah, and I think this is another thing that a lot of men need to recognize is that it is not terribly uncommon to have erection difficulties now and again.

J Parker: Everything's not going to perform exactly. So I think a lot of women are more willing to say, "Oh, this isn't working for me," or, "We're going to have to pull out the lubricant because this isn't working for me."

J Parker: And I guess there's not really the same option for man. He can't just be like, "Well, let me just pull out the lubricant, and that's going to give me an erection."

Corey Allan: Right. There's medicinal things and pharmaceutical things out there-

J Parker: Well, yes, there are.

Corey Allan: ... that you can go to, but it's still one of those things of it is a hard corollary because I think women, as they age, and all of a sudden lubrication changes-

J Parker: I'm sorry. I shouldn't laugh at you, but you said it is a hard corollary.

Corey Allan: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Comedic value.

J Parker: I'm sorry-

Corey Allan: Well done.

J Parker: I'm 13 [crosstalk 00:33:40].

Corey Allan: You're 13 in your fifties. I get you.

Corey Allan: But there's the corollary of women that are premenopausal, menopausal, and have lubrication issues. Still, for some women, "Wait, I got to get the lube" goes against the belief of, "Yeah, but I should just naturally respond to this and-

J Parker: Well, that's true.

Corey Allan: "... have multiple levels of lubrication going on where I never need it," rather than realizing, "Wait, that just enhances the enjoyment. What's the problem?"

Corey Allan: And so again, it's the same kind of structure underneath, I think, that both genders need to address when it comes to, is their body working in the manner it used to or I wish it would or hope it will? Because there always will be times where it's not going to.

J Parker: Yeah, and I will also just say this. Men, when wives say, "It's not a big deal now and then for you to have erectile difficulty," they really mean it.

J Parker: I have just heard from enough women that they're like, "Well, it's not a big deal. We just did something else."

J Parker: I mean, if it continues to happen, and you don't address it, if it's a real problem and you're not addressing it, then that's something else. But it really doesn't make her think, "Wow, my guy is not some great lover."

J Parker: That's not how we connect in our brains. Most wives are really just as impressed as what he can do with his hand. Anyway, so I just want to throw that out there.

Corey Allan: Yeah, if we want to just be blunt about this, J, there's an element of, for clitoral stimulation, a penis isn't necessarily a good tool.

J Parker: No, it's not a good tool, yeah.

Corey Allan: So it is recognizing, "Okay, there's a lot of other things that I'm capable of doing when things don't go the manner in which I wish that they would have or something shifts," and I guess it's just the imperative then is on each person in this situation showing up as best they can and then overcoming our difficulties. That's the statement of when you recognize, we're going to have some problems with this.

Corey Allan: This could be a challenge. I'm going to be better at weathering them when they do show up.

J Parker: Right. Right, and I do think that stress and also a lot of health issues, and men tend to have more cardiovascular issues, and that can be a problem too because y'all have to have blood flow to get an erection. And so that can cause some problems.

J Parker: And then if a man doesn't feel confident about that, he may shy away because he feels like he's going to be a failure. I think more often than not though, a higher desire wife would rather him just show up and give it a shot.

J Parker: And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out this time, and maybe next time. And that's the beauty of all of this being in a marriage is that you don't have any one single encounter defining sexual intimacy.

Corey Allan: Right, this is a journey. This is a long game that can go on.

J Parker: This one can go not so great, and you can still have a fantastic sex life because you should have hundreds of other experiences to draw from.

Corey Allan: Well, I'm going to even pause it though, J, that the not-so-great moments are actually what create the deeper level of profoundness and intimacy within the marriage because of what you're capable of overcoming and redefining the meaning of and challenging the beliefs within, because that's that element of, I mean, heaven forbid a marriage actually shift to where some of the main focus is just for her pleasure, period. I mean, how awful would that be for all the women out there?

Corey Allan: Not at all. That's tongue-in-cheek completely.

J Parker: Yeah, I was going to say, sounds okay to me.

Corey Allan: Absolutely, and it should be that-

J Parker: Hope my husband's listening.

Corey Allan: ... because far too often, it's been a male-centric thing as far as society has gone, as far as the church has gone, that it's just focused on that. That's what culture has kind of set it up to be in a lot of ways.

Corey Allan: But that's not at all what it needs to be as we go forward, that it can be, "Look, I'm in this for you. I'm good with that.

Corey Allan: "Let's go. I know I can be a conduit for your pleasure, honey. I'm in."

Corey Allan: And if I rise to the occasion, and it can be for me, fantastic. If not, I get to revel in your pleasure, and that's just redefining what goes on and the meaning that I attach to the things.

J Parker: Yeah, I had a woman come up to me after an event one time and just kind of wanted to talk to me privately. And she said, "I just want to know."

J Parker: She said, "My husband sometimes has erectile difficulties." And she said when that happens, he just says he wants to give her oral sex so that she can reach her climax.

J Parker: And she said, "I just feel guilty just accepting that and it being about me. I feel like it should be for him too or whatever."

J Parker: And I talked to her, and I said, "Is he taking pleasure from giving you pleasure?" And she said, "Well, yeah. He says he loves to see me reach that."

J Parker: And I was like, "Well, girlfriend, just accept it as the generous gift it is. I know that is still something that is bringing you two intimacy."

Corey Allan: Yeah, yeah. That's that idea of, how do we take away someone else's joy in what they are offering to give when I say no? Because that's far too often a common occurrence on where we have trouble receiving as humans.

Corey Allan: I have a personal belief that we have different areas of our lives, every single human, that I have a real discomfort in receiving. It could be sexually.

Corey Allan: It could just be I want to be grateful to something and help out with somebody. And they're, "Thank you so much."

Corey Allan: And I play it off as, "Oh, it was no big deal. It was on my way," rather than I just took away the blessing of their thank you, right?

J Parker: Right.

Corey Allan: So how do I learn to receive? Because again, the two sides of the coin matter here, that I can make it about my partner. I can make it about the instance of their pleasure, and I likely have pleasure in that too.

J Parker: Right, and I also think I'm going to go back to what you said about the not so great moments and all of these things that we're talking about. Being able to say these things to your spouse, whether it's, "I just want to pleasure you," or, "Well, that didn't work out this time. Maybe next time," those kinds of things, they may feel awkward at the time, but that's a beautiful kind of intimacy, just to be able to talk about your sexual intimacy openly and both observe what's happening and say, "Hey, this is good. This is okay."

Corey Allan: Yeah, and that makes me think of, J, when we started this conversation with wives that play the higher desire, and they have to kind of reexamine, "What's wrong with me if he's not interested?" because that's going with the culture of, every guy should be interested. You look at a guy, and he should be raring to go and all that kind of stuff.

Corey Allan: I almost hear that we've got to come back to that to make it to where you can have this conversation as a higher desire wife when you've been rejected, and your self-talk and even your talk with him... Because those are uncomfortable, because it's real easy to say, "I don't understand why you're not interested. Every other guy... "

Corey Allan: That's almost kind of what you're thinking rather than, what is it that makes your husband unique in who they are and their wiring, their experiences surrounding the subject, their stress levels, their whatever? Because that's a better likelihood of finding a solution rather than, "Well, this should work, and then this should work," because you're not taking into account the uniqueness of it.

J Parker: Yeah, and one of the reasons that I've gotten [inaudible 00:41:52] is because I have kind of been everything. So my husband and I have been matched.

J Parker: I was the lower desire spouse after our kids were born, and then I became the higher desire spouse, and I have mostly been that the rest of our marriage. And when all of that kind of started happening, when he was not as interested as I was, I started having all those same thoughts.

J Parker: So I've kind of been through those, and, well, I remember crying and thinking, "Any other guy would be happy to have a wife like me that wants to have sex."

J Parker: And first of all, not true. Secondly, I don't want anybody else, so I wasn't thinking about anybody else.

J Parker: That's crazy. And he did want me; there were just other things happening that we had to figure out. And it also had to occur to me that this was not different from when he was higher drive, and I was lower drive, and we had to figure that out.

J Parker: And so once I kind of made all these shifts... it took a little bit of time to make all these shifts... it's become something different where I'm able to process through that and say, "This isn't that there something wrong with me. And there's not something wrong with him, necessarily."

J Parker: Now, there could be under certain circumstances, but for the most part, this is just something that we together have to figure out how to navigate. And so there's some differences of it being the wife who's higher desire than the husband's higher desire, but it's still the same approach of, "You know what? I want this more than you do, and we're going to have to navigate this.

J Parker: "And that means let's figure out why you're not wanting it as much. Let me figure out where I can adjust my expectations, and let's find a good middle ground."

Corey Allan: So does it also... because we need to touch on this one too before we're done with our conversation. Does it also fit that the higher desire... in our case, we're talking about for wives... has to ask themselves the questions of, what's behind my desire level too?

Corey Allan: Because we can be seeking sex that's not life giving and pleasurable for both, and it can be very selfish or one-sided or slanted, because this is what I'll talk about with men a lot of times is we sexualize things that aren't sexual.

Corey Allan: And so the reason, for a lot of times, guys struggle with pornography when they're younger or even when they're older is it's not about sexual drive or curiosity at that point. It's about boredom, and it's about anxiety, and it's about all these other things that have nothing to do with our sex life.

Corey Allan: And so I've got to separate those things out, but I'm assuming that we're talking about the same kind of thing could be going on with a wife that's the higher desire. She has to start asking herself at least some questions of, "What's behind my higher desire?

Corey Allan: "What's the sex that I'm actually seeking really about? And is it as genuine, as pure, as it needs to be to enhance what it can be?"

J Parker: Yeah. I'm smiling the whole time you're talking about this because I have been working on a book. It's not done yet, but I've been working a book for higher desire wives.

J Parker: And I have a section in there that is about, okay, we've talked about all these reasons for him. Let's talk about you.

J Parker: Is it possible that maybe your desire for sex is not just a desire for sex, that there's something else going on and something in your background? Because there can be, and I mean, it's a common joke out there in secular culture about women wanting sex a lot because they have, quote unquote, daddy issues.

J Parker: But there's some psychology behind some of that as well, and so that could be part of the thing of your feeling that strong desire for male affection, and then you sexualize that. And so the attention and affection you get during sex is sating something that's not just sexual.

J Parker: So that's just one example. There could be others, but it's worth asking yourself, "Where is this coming from for me?

J Parker: "And whatever emotional needs I have, are they just about sex? Are there some other ways that they could be met?"

Corey Allan: Right. Yeah, because I think there's a lot that happens. I mean, there's a functional level to sex that we can all reach, and many people taste and actually live a lot of their lives there when it comes to, if you're in a sexual relationship in a marriage, a lot of the times, it's functional.

Corey Allan: That's what keeps it at that level. But to get to the deeper profound, or as [inaudible 00:47:00] refer to them as the blessed few, you're talking about more meaningful showing up, which isn't just the motivation of having sex for sex's sake or the motivation of, "I've been really stressed, and I know this helps me so sleep," or the motivation of, "This helps me feel affection and love," when it really isn't sexual affection and love. It's something deeper that I could find in other ways.

Corey Allan: And so if you're describing kind of what you're saying of what's behind either side of this equation, what's behind the role that you play in it? Because that's a good question to ask.

J Parker: And neither a husband or wife who's higher desire should be using their spouse just as a tool to meet some need. So you got to be careful about that, that you're not just saying, "Hey, I just need you to come."

J Parker: And this is the thing we tell people not to say. "I really need a release, so you need to have sex with me." And it's like, what?

Corey Allan: No.

J Parker: No. So the question is, is sex a way of you wanting to really be intimate with your husband? Because that's what it's supposed to be.

Corey Allan: Right, and that's the stuff that we have such a struggle as humans is recognizing, "I really, really want this deeper showing up, knowing and being known. But I'm also, at the same time, kind of scared of it at times, because what if they actually read I'm not as into it as I thought, or what if I can't perform what I thought?"

Corey Allan: I mean, that's kind of what we've been talking about the whole way through of, it's really just challenging the beliefs I've got on where they came from and where are they now. What's serving me well now that maybe I need to reevaluate because it's not serving me as well as it could be?

J Parker: Yeah. I think that's where that honesty is important, and also... I guess this is just going to go along with my brand... I think humor is important too.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

J Parker: To just have that attitude of something went awry and being able to laugh about it and just kind of get through it. I mean, some of the fun moments in our marital bedroom have been humorous moments.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

J Parker: So I mean, I joke about the one where he thinks he's doing something great, and suddenly I'm like, "Ow, ow, ow, you're on my hair. You're on my hair," you know?

Corey Allan: Right.

J Parker: It could be whatever. That's just a simple one.

J Parker: But we kind of have to get to where we can lighten up about it also. It's both profound and lighthearted.

Corey Allan: Yeah, that's a good combination. So J, the members of the SMR Nation that want to find you more, to listen to the podcast you have, and then also be on the lookout for the book that you're working on, how can they find you?

J Parker: The best place to find me is hotholyhumorous.com. And there, you can find stuff about podcasts.

J Parker: I am involved with two podcasts: Sex Chat for Christian Wives with three other co-hosts and then also Knowing Her Sexually with one other woman where it's four husbands, and we just try to explain the wife's perspective on sex.

J Parker: So not telling them what to do; just kind of hoping to let them know. And then I'm also happy to do speaking.

J Parker: I've got books, and everything's pretty much there. And if you want to find me on social media, you can look Hot, Holy, Humorous as well, and you'll find me.

Corey Allan: Perfect, and I'll put the main link to the site in the show notes. So J-

J Parker: Beautiful.

Corey Allan: ... it's such a pleasure to connect with you again, and all the best and blessings on you as 2022 gets rolling, and good things are to come, I hope.

J Parker: Great. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for having me on.

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: So one of things that stands out to me, babe, is this idea that the dynamics that are at play in marriage, they're almost universal in the sense that there's a higher desire, lower desire is how we've always framed things.

Pam Allan: Sure. Yep.

Corey Allan: The lot that each person has and wherever they are in that dynamic has a lot of similarities but also enough variance to make it unique to where there's not a one-size-fits-all path, right?

Pam Allan: Oh, yeah.

Corey Allan: There's not a, "Here is the answer." I say this with my clients when we're talking about stuff.

Corey Allan: They're like, "If we could have been the ones that could create the key to unlocking what it is we all long for in marriage, we would've been the world's fastest trillionaire," because everybody's seeking it. But there's so many variances and variables at play.

Corey Allan: But the flip side of that is, we all are in the same boat on the journey that we have and the struggles that we have, and there's nuances in there. But man, there's a whole lot of similarities still.

Pam Allan: Yeah, most of us are looking for a similar goal.

Corey Allan: And so we take comfort in that, in knowing, "Wait, I'm not alone. I'm not abnormal or an anomaly."

Corey Allan: And so that's what we hope each and every week with Sexy Marriage Radio, you just kind of understand, hey, we're not alone in this journey. Even if you're in a marriage where you feel alone, we're not alone in this journey, because the Nation's here.

Corey Allan: There's other people out there, and sometimes, it just takes the courage to reach out and ask some questions. And maybe you reach out to a show like this and ask your question, and we'll answer it.

Corey Allan: And we'll even keep you anonymous. No problem at all, because we want to help people find their path that helps them create a little more passion and connection.

Corey Allan: Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone, let us know: 214-702-9565 or feedback@sexymarriageradio.com. We'll see you next time.