Top iTunes Marriage Podcast

13+ Million Downloads

hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

Moments of Meeting #511

Registration for the 2021 Sexy Marriage Radio Getaway is now open. Click here to learn more. 

Come join the conversations in the SMRNation Community at

On the Regular version of today’s show …

How does a husband help his wife be more confident, while also helping his teenage daughter be less confident? 

A husband is confident at work, yet struggles to being that same presence to home.

A higher desire wife struggles initiating due to fear of rejection and they both have struggled with masturbation throughout their lives. 

On the Xtended version …

Moments of meeting. Perhaps this is a better way to frame what many of us are really looking for in marriage and life. 

Enjoy the show!

Sponsors …

The State Of Our Union: Weekly conversation prompts to have meaningful conversations.

Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps!  If your review is chosen and read on the podcast (anonymously, of course!), you’ll win a very special prize!

Got a question?

Call/Text us at  214-702-9565

or email us at

Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio

Speaker 2: You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio.

Pam Allan: It's good to be here.

Corey Allan: Where it's spring time here in Texas, the birds are chirping around our home. You'll probably hear them throughout the podcast today.

Pam Allan: Probably so. They're pretty loud today.

Corey Allan: Especially anytime we're having a contemplative quiet moment, trying to think through where are we heading next? Or what's the next best point or how to answer some of the different emails that are coming this way? Because, like we always have been doing lately, we are answering what the nation wants to know today. And we are so grateful for the nation that they speak up and they ask questions and we want to answer them and be a great resource to help frame conversations. We've been doing this for almost a decade now as a show.

Pam Allan: That's exciting.

Corey Allan: Which is fabulous to think how long this thing's been going on and continues to keep going. Well to that, when we're talking about the nation, one of the ways you let us know what's going on with you is you call us, you can call at (214) 702-9565. Or the email address that we use is And then we also have the platform for the nation, which is my.SMRnation, where one of the questions is coming from there today.

Pam Allan: Oh, good.

Corey Allan: Someone has been asking some questions there that we've been able to answer some, but we're going to go on a larger scale.

Pam Allan: Okay, perfect.

Corey Allan: And then the other last plea we have is just in case you weren't aware, the Sexy Marriage Radio getaway comes up here in June and we are almost full. So if you want a spot, go to to reserve your space, because we want to see you in June. All new content. We're doing some different things with some of the schedule a little bit, to accommodate where we are as a world.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: But it's still going to be a fantastic time that dedicated between ... and the whole focus, if anybody's not familiar with the getaway, the whole focus of this is about you and your spouse. That we want this experience to be something that is really, really beneficial for the two of you. You're just going to happen to be alongside a bunch of other people while you're there. But the whole focus is how does this play out in your life and in your marriage, much like we do here on the show.

Pam Allan: That's right.

Corey Allan: So coming up on today's regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio is several of your emails or questions that have come in and our answers. And then coming up on the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer, and there are no ads, you can subscribe at, we're going to do a deep dive into the concept that Schnarch coined is where I heard it first, called moments of meeting.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And the main premise we're going to be talking about is this idea of maybe this is the best way to clarify and capture what many of us are really after, when you're talking about intimate depth and connection in a marriage. All that's coming up on today's show.
An email that came in and says, "Dr. Allan, thanks for all that you do with the SMR Nation. Your podcasts helped me be more solid and improve my marriage in ways my wife has prayed for for years." I love that phrase.

Pam Allan: I do too.

Corey Allan: "I started listening, as most higher desires probably do, to figure out how to have more sex. I quickly learned that my wife's lower desire wasn't the biggest setback. Imagine that. I was in my own way big time. Through the years of binge listening and some soul searching and some divine intervention, in our relationship, our sex life, and my family life in general has greatly improved. So here's the reason for the email. We're 40 with two kids, age 17 and 7, we've been married almost 15 years. She has always had some dissatisfaction with her body, which can be understandable because she's overweight. She is so confident in every aspect of her life. When it comes to clothes, being sexy, talking about sex, receiving compliments. I've tried to slowly introduce her to things I hear from SMR and it's helped our communication some, but she still gets no ... but she still gets so embarrassed.
"Recently, she accidentally matched her bra and panties. This is extremely rare. Maybe it's happened twice in 15 years on purpose with lingerie for a special event. I complimented her about it in a completely, what I tried to be, unsexual way, just that I was impressed and proud that she looked so good. I thought it would help her to feel better about herself if she tried to take pride in those things. Start with those things that only she and I see then work outward to what everyone else sees and build her confidence in that style. She's done it backwards. She does hair, makeup, Stitch Fix, but never the underwear. She has the comfy stuff that she wears until it absolutely has to be replaced. Corey and Pam, I'd love to hear your thoughts about matching sets of underwear. Does it help the women in them feel better about themselves or is it all just candy, eye candy for us men?
"And on a second thought my teen is just like me in confidence. My wife is tough on her when it comes to dressing conservative, including her underwear. There is some backstory with the teen and some valid reasons for us to keep an eye on her. So help me walk that thin line of teaching my wife to be confident and sexy, but yet teaching my daughter to not be so confident and sexy."

Pam Allan: Gosh, like a double-edged sword there, right?

Corey Allan: It absolutely is.

Pam Allan: So I would say that yes, there is definitely something to what you're wearing underneath makes a difference.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Pam Allan: I think there's a confidence, a "Hey, I feel like I look good underneath."

Corey Allan: Okay. So I want to ask a clarification then, Pam, because I think this is one of the things when I'm reading his email, the first thing that comes to my mind is a statement I heard. And I don't know where this came from first, but somebody made the statement of, if at the end of the day, or at any point during the day you discover that your wife has on matching bra and panties, then you're not the only one that's thinking about sex that day. That was just kind of a phrase for higher desire husbands to recognize there's something going on here that she intentionally sought that out possibly. That it was a message.

Pam Allan: I think that that is a pretty good analysis in my opinion, yeah.

Corey Allan: His, the way he's framing this, I'm curious because I also hear a thought process of, as I'm kind of trying to capture a picture of her in her journey, there's an inner confidence that that would be a significance to, yet I could still look really good on the outside and that's kind of an outer confidence and maybe there's a difference and a distinction between those two.

Pam Allan: Sure. I think that's with anything. I can be superficial all day long and I can put on something that makes me look a certain way, but my mind isn't right. Yeah. I can-

Corey Allan: You can portray something-

Pam Allan: I can portray something.

Corey Allan: ... that maybe isn't completely accurate, is that kind of what you're just describing?

Pam Allan: Sure, sure.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Pam Allan: And maybe that's, maybe for some people that's a fake it till you make it and maybe for some people it's covering something up.

Corey Allan: Or both.

Pam Allan: Or both. Right.

Corey Allan: Or other things that we could probably add to it, too.

Pam Allan: Right. So you can go up a lot of different arenas, but he references, she has her comfy that just gets thrown out when it's totally-

Corey Allan: When it's worn out. Yep.

Pam Allan: Totally get that. Love that. Do that too.

Corey Allan: I think that probably captures a lot of people that there are some things that it's just the comfort clothes. It's the old pair of sneakers, if you will, or the comfy jammies or sweats or we all have something like that.

Pam Allan: That's fine.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Pam Allan: That's fine. But I think that it does totally, it does say something when that's what I want. That's what I want to portray to my spouse or to wear for myself to feel good. It's funny that she wore them by accident. I'm always real cognizant of what I'm putting on. I can't say that anything I'm doing that I'm putting on is by accident. I don't care if it's bra and panties or anything else.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Pam Allan: So I think that there is, there's typically something there.

Corey Allan: Okay. Yeah. To me, what jumps out is this idea of what's the meaning of things? What is the meaning of if she actually puts on the undergarments that do send a message of sexuality or prowess or something? Because yes, like he's pointing out, I do believe a lot of lingerie that's sold today is really more eye candy for the spouse than it is for the woman. Because some of the stuff-

Pam Allan: Oh, I'd agree. Some of it's so uncomfortable.

Corey Allan: crosstalk I know some of those people that they love it because of the way they feel, the way it makes them look, and it is, they see it as them. But I think it's both, it's also for the view and it's also for what's being portrayed.

Pam Allan: I would agree. I mean, there's things that I wear that it's ridiculously uncomfortable. It's just for you.

Corey Allan: Right. Thank you for that, by the way.

Pam Allan: You're welcome. You're welcome. But I'm ready to get it off because it's so uncomfortable.

Corey Allan: I'm usually ready to get it off too. But so it's looking at this idea that, as he's ending his email of, how do I help her ... Or actually his phrasing was, "How do I teach her to be confident?" And I want to challenge that because I don't know if you teach somebody else how to be confident. I think you can encourage and maybe inspire confidence. Some in the manner in which you carry yourself, some in the manner in which you approach them, that it's less contingent on how do they respond that when he brings it up in an unsexy way that he tried to, "Man, you looked really good." Well, she's going to hear that as a sexual way too, probably.

Pam Allan: Typically, yeah.

Corey Allan: But you're not ashamed of that. You're unapologetic about that. You're like, "Man, I just want you to know you look good." And you take it as you take it, because you're coming at it as a confident person, and I think that's what can maybe draw somebody out into some confidence themselves.

Pam Allan: Yeah. I totally agree with that. I think that it's one thing to do that one time, but if you're consistent with what you see and you just call it like you see it and move on that portrays a real genuine, consistent message that is helpful crosstalk

Corey Allan: And this is where it gets interesting because as we start doing this in the more intimate relationships that we have, like a marriage, our map has to align that what I'm saying is also who I am and becoming, it's not a move.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And I'm not trying to hide it like it's a move. It is a move too, yes, but I'm being genuinely me in that, "Man, I really, really like that." Take it as you see it. Because this is where we've kind of landed on this idea of looking at our sexuality as our super power. And so where do you steer your superpower and how do you grasp and harness that to use it for good and goodness in your life and in your marriage. And one of the ways is like what he's describing on the outside, she's got it. And then it's just getting into the deeper part where you truly believe it and you live it and it becomes a second nature. That's the way he's kind of mapped his wife.
So I think the way he's trying to encourage that, is going to be exactly like what he's doing. "Man, you remember that time when you accidentally wore matching, I still have that burned in my memory. That was really good." And then you just kind of move on, but it's kind of planting some seeds of, "I like that parts of you. I hope you see it the way I see it too," because you can't make somebody see themselves the way you do. They have a different journey, history, hangups, and everything.
So then how do you thread the needle with a daughter that's the opposite? Same path. I think you're just upfront about it. You just say, "Look, girl, this is a superpower you've got and you can use it for goodness or it can bring about destruction in the wrong environments." and so it's not just talking about health and safety, it's also talking about the meaning and the whys behind it because you can have sex as a human being, but what's going on with the wiring of your brain in those things. And that's where we need to start. I think we need to be better teaching children. It's more than just tab A, slot B. It's not just an act. It's all of us. And so-

Pam Allan: Yeah, well, and I think those are important conversations for parents to have with the kids, right? Because when we do ... It's that message that we've talked a lot about here in that all these adults are dealing with messages they got when they were kids and bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Sexuality's bad. Sex is bad and that's not necessarily what the adults in our lives believed, but it was this fear of, oh my gosh, what if they're promiscuous? What if they get pregnant?

Corey Allan: It was a fear-based message, yeah.

Pam Allan: And so trying to just be real and communicate the real picture, what is it that you're concerned as a parent and shoot straight with them.

Corey Allan: This is the phrase we've landed on with our children as other interests of people have entered their world.

Pam Allan: Influences, yeah.

Corey Allan: Whether it's a friend or someone of the opposite gender, doesn't matter. That I landed quickly with both our kids on the idea of I can trust the person. I don't trust situations.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And, so it's really, I'm trying to let her and him, between with our kids, recognize I have confidence in you, but I'm also, I'm more leery of situations and contexts.

Pam Allan: It's easy to get sucked in to the moment.

Corey Allan: So the more that you can recognize who you are and what you're doing with your superpower and your identity and your character, I want to help in all the situations that you might find yourself in. And so it truly becomes how are we walking alongside these people, whether it's our child or a spouse, and we are refining ourselves at the same rate that we're asking them to refine themselves.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Another email that is along the same lines. "Anyone recall if there's been an episode that talked about people who in public work life are bold, confident, clear in what they want, even viewed as strong leaders with high EQs, but when they get home, all that seems to go away. I'd be curious if this is at all common and what might be behind it. I started listening to SMR about a year ago and recently started catching up from episode one. So to be fair, I've only listened to episodes one through 33 and then most of 450 to present."
This is a common occurrence, I think, a lot of times where, when I'm working with men in the mastermind groups, this is where I see it the most. And then secondarily, sometimes with clients. That they can't understand what it is about different circumstances or environments that make it easy to be bold and courageous and adventurous and risk taker. And then I come home and I'm scared to death of my spouse, if I'm honest.

Pam Allan: Wow.

Corey Allan: And not scared in a fearful way.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: It's just, I'm afraid of them. I'm afraid of more their reactions and their responses in the possible disappointment therein that may come from something I suggest, something I want, something I instigate and they don't.

Pam Allan: And why is it that they'd be so much more scared at home rather than, or tentative at home?

Corey Allan: I think the biggest difference, most of the time, is value that I place on environment and the people involved. Not that I don't care about the people at work, but I don't care about the people at work like I do people at home. So it's different. And then the other is a power dynamic. Most of the time, the people that are confident at work, there's power that goes along with that inherently with the role they play. So there's less I have to justify who I am. I know it, my it's my role. I am boss. I am manager. I am shift lead. I am owner, whatever it might be. And so there's just an inherent, "No, this is just the way we're going to do it." And that hierarchy immediately makes it to where I have less fear of, "What if they don't like it? What if they disagree? What if they say no?"

Pam Allan: Sure.

Corey Allan: Well, if I come home and I bring that to bear, and this is not just a male thing, this is a female thing too. And all of a sudden I get pushback from my spouse, say, "No, I'm not going to do that." Or, "How could you ask me to do that? How could you say it that way?" I care more about that response. The risk is higher. And so automatically then the scene and the environment is dramatically different to where more of me is being asked and risked as I go up the hierarchy of importance.

Pam Allan: Okay. Makes sense.

Corey Allan: And then the other thing that I think plays out in this is what we touched on in the prior segment. Is this idea that my spouse knows more than most anybody else who I am. So they have a map of me that's pretty accurate most of the time on, "Okay. You're a big stuff there, but not ..." Some of the things you've said over our relationship when we'd have something really cool is part of the role we play for each other as keep each other humble. Because Ecclesiastes has the statement, which we love of, there are no great people to their servants. And I'm not equating spouses to being servants here, so don't hear it that way. But the people you live with, they know you're just a human being.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: They know you put your pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else, you have struggles and insecurities and fears just like everybody else. So you can't, it's harder to walk in the door and be the boss or in charge or have this bravado that you can easily carry out in the world because the world doesn't know you nor do they sleep with you. And everything changes in my mind when this is what I say to clients when they're like, "I don't get it." And I'm like, "Well, you don't have sex with everybody else hopefully. You have sex with your spouse. They know you intimately different than everybody else in the world."

Pam Allan: They hear all your snoring and all those crazy sounds.

Corey Allan: Now you're meddling in my world.

Pam Allan: You're calling me out on snoring, it's true.

Corey Allan: We need to do a coffee table crosstalk a coffee shop talk on how do you handle snoring in marriage. But it's looking at it through this lens of, I try to think of life as a relational hierarchy and the higher I go up that chain of importance that the people are in my life, the harder it is to truly be all of who I am with them because they see all of who I am. And sometimes I don't like the incongruence of that. I like to see myself as, "Oh yeah, I got it all together. But my spouse knows I don't always have it all together. And I don't want to acknowledge that." That's actually what we're going to be talking a lot about in the extended content today.

Pam Allan: Okay. Okay.

Corey Allan: So if you want a little bit more, join us after the jump here in just a little while. So last email today, Pam. "Thank you so much for the podcast. I've been listening for a couple months. My husband and I have been married for almost seven years and we had our first baby girl a year ago." Well, congratulations. I've always had the higher drive, except for those months of postpartum. I thought this was strange until listening to your show and realizing that I wasn't alone. There have been times that we would go weeks without sex because he doesn't initiate it. And I hate trying to initiate and then being shot down." She just captured the path and the plight of a higher desire.

Pam Allan: That's exactly right.

Corey Allan: It doesn't matter. Male, female. It doesn't matter. It's the same path. "Plus it feels awkward to initiate because I don't want him to do it just because he feels like it's something he should do. I want him to want it often." Again, she just captured the path of the higher desire. "I also want to add that we've both struggled with masturbating on our own ever since we were young kids. I think we still struggle because we have trouble communicating what we want. How do you suggest we get rid of the desire to pleasure ourselves and go to the other person instead? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for all that you do." Well, I love hearing from higher desire wives.

Pam Allan: Definitely.

Corey Allan: Because they are not unicorns.

Pam Allan: No.

Corey Allan: And they're not as anomalous as sometimes they're laid out to be. There's quite a few that truly encapture the higher desire in a marriage because it's neither right or wrong. Doesn't matter which gender, there's a higher and a lower. So what she's describing is the plight that every higher desire tries to figure out how to get around of, I want more sex, but I want you to want more sex like I want more sex.

Pam Allan: Yeah. And can't make them want more.

Corey Allan: Right. And you can even get deeper of, I can't make somebody want to want it. So then the higher desires journey becomes, how do I start looking at it through the lens of their motivations of what they choose to do is not my concern as much as what they choose to do.

Pam Allan: Okay. Okay.

Corey Allan: Right. Because can be times where a husband, in her case, could be a willing participant. He doesn't have the drive and it's not a hormonal, "Ooh. Yeah, baby. Let's go." But it's, "I would love to, I mean, I'm in, we could do this." And it's almost, it's not just neutral, but it's a little more ... It's lending towards the positive. And you see that as, is it accomplishing more sex like you want? That's the point.

Pam Allan: As long as they're not resentful about it, right. But if they're-

Corey Allan: The lower desire?

Pam Allan: Right, right. Because I mean, you don't want them to be in that resentful mindset.

Corey Allan: But look at the double-edged sword this could be that you just framed there, Pam. The higher desire can be resentful because you don't want it the way I want it. And now all of a sudden it can easily bear itself out in something you don't want from them either.

Pam Allan: Good point.

Corey Allan: So it's looking at this through the lens, all the questions we've had thus far have been about a confidence in a bringing myself forward. That's the thread here too. If you want more sex, then go for it, girl. Reach out, make a move, make the suggestions, see what happens. Let him say yes or no, because the more and more you can do this and the cleaner you can do it, the more I start to think the dynamic becomes both of you are challenged to do better as your own role of higher or lower, which means your yes is your yes and your no is your no.
If he's not into it and he says, no, so be it. Marriage is a long game. Play it that way. You just set up the stage for the next time. I've gotten as the higher desire to where I start to understand, I'll make a move or a suggestion or an innuendo with you and it doesn't result in sex, but it resulted in a smirk or a giggle or a "Ooh, that could be fun." And then it's moved on to something else because the timing I made it could have been inopportune. That's fine. That was a positive result to me because you start looking at it as this is a long game.

Pam Allan: But you didn't always look at it that way.

Corey Allan: No. No. Used to be, it was a devastation. If I'm like, "Did you not hear me say? Did I say ... I said that out loud, right?"

Pam Allan: That was out loud, right?

Corey Allan: "You didn't hear that? How could you be ... You need to get your hearing checked, girl, or something." But no, starting to see it as, this is a bigger aspect of us in our marriage and a bigger aspect of me in my marriage. This also leads to her second question of masturbation has been something they both struggled with. So how do you bring this out into where you're steering it more towards your other, to your partner instead? Have you had a conversation about what would happen if you guys just masturbated together?

Pam Allan: Valid.

Corey Allan: And brought that to bear and just see if you want to up the intimate level and that's not been a conversation. Bring that one up and say, "You know what, honey, why don't we go do this alongside each other? Why don't we help each other out? Why don't you watch? I'll watch." Who says there's a script on how we're supposed to do this in marriage, if it's out in the open with each other. So a lot of this, I think I'm hearing from her is tell me if I'm wrong with this, Pam, a lot of this is truly how do I bring myself out in the open more and handle the risk that's inherent within it?

Pam Allan: Yeah. I think that sounds pretty spot on.

Corey Allan: Because what she's framed in the way she's asking these questions is that is the plight of married life.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Yeah.

Corey Allan: I don't go through this without risk. So you can try to mitigate some, but I think the better of path for all of us higher desire and lower desire alike, is how do I bring me to bear better in my relationship? And I handle what happens as a result of any move I make, because I can see it as I'll get another chance. It's not a shooting down of me as a person. It's just the shooting down of an event at that moment.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: It seems to me that confidence is one of those regular occurrence of things that maybe ebbs and flows in life. Am I wrong?

Pam Allan: No, I think that can be spot on, yeah.

Corey Allan: Because that's a lot of what the questions were today, is an undercurrent of how do I create more of me? Bring me more to bear in these moments of life and in the connections that I get and the possibilities that I'm trying to create> and that's where we went with all the different questions, that's for sure are part of this whole process of moments of meeting.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: That there's has to be a level of confidence of being able to reveal myself to be seen, because some of what's seen is still in development and I'm hoping people don't see it yet until it's refined. Maybe I need to recognize part of my refinement is the willingness to let it be seen and grow through it.

Pam Allan: Oh yeah. That's where you end up getting the confidence because you've lived through something, right. I've been there. I've done that. Now-

Corey Allan: Something that's earned.

Pam Allan: Yeah, exactly.

Corey Allan: Okay, well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone, my, let us know or We'll see you next time.