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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

Mutual Masturbation #473

On the Regular version of today’s show …

An email from a wife who has discovered the eroticism and freedom that can happen when masturbating together with her husband. 

What’s the difference between sexual thoughts and lust?

A husband wanting to know what to do when he’s tried to live in a way that ignites his wife’s passion (according to an old post I wrote – and yet his wife had an affair.

On the Xtended version …

How do you confront gridlock in your marriage and what are the forced choice dilemmas that come along with them?

Enjoy the show!

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Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio,
You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex does happen in the marriage bed. And we are constantly wanting, not only for the best sex to happen in the marriage bed, but just for your marriage to be vibrant and alive and your life to be vibrant and alive. And we think that, that's a huge part of what makes marriage vibrant and alive.

Pam Allan: How many times can we say that phrase?

Corey Allan: I imagine I can say it a few more times.

Pam Allan: All right. All right. That's the game for the day.

Corey Allan: We're so glad that you take some time out of the day each and every week to spend it with us, if you are a part of the SMR nation. And the way you let us know what's going on in your world or questions that you may have, topics that you want us to address, or just what's going on in your life, we want to hear from you. So (214) 702-9565. It's where you can call in the voicemail line, leave any kind of feedback or thoughts that are on your mind. We can even disguise your voice if you're a little hesitant about your voice being on the air.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Or you can send us an email at
This came in a couple of weeks ago, Pamela. It says, "We live in New Zealand." I love it when we hear from people on the other side of the world.

Pam Allan: I do too.

Corey Allan: "But I was raised in Los Angeles, Orange County area of California. Discovered your show when I was a guest on Juli Slattery's, Java with Juli show. It took me a while to get back to finding you again, but I'm extremely glad that I did. I've been binging SMR for a couple of months now. Currently, I'm on number 122." So he's got a way to go.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: "I grew up with a porn addiction from about the time I was 11 or 12, started participating in a recovery program about 10 years ago. Now, I haven't partaken in porn in almost six years and I'm still very much relearning what healthy sexuality is. Our show is so very unique and so very helpful in this regard and can't thank you enough. I guess my ideal outcome is for me to learn what healthy sexuality is.
So one story to relay, that's funny, that I've been ever so slowly introducing your show to my wife. I'll send her a link to individual shows that aren't so blatant or graphic as the others that maybe are, primarily about communication or something like that. She recently listened to one of those that I'd linked to her, but she was cooking while she was listening and couldn't handle her phone to be able to stop it so that when the show ended, she hadn't queued anything else. So it rolled over to the next SMR episode, which was one that Shannon and I did, explaining how to find a woman's G-spot. It's quite funny when she told me about it later that day, and I told her that you weren't shy talking about things, but there was still some shock there for sure. Keep up the great work." And then he also adds that, it's quite funny to hear, twice now, when I have mentioned in the earlier shows, Pam, "My wife would never do this show with me. And at one point considered not even listening anymore. Well, obviously things have changed for the better."

Pam Allan: Right. And maybe his wife will start listening, right? I guess that adds some spice to the kitchen that night, while you're cooking, right? Oh, maybe she learned something about her own body. Hopefully so.

Corey Allan: Maybe. And then, that's the way that we get introduced to a lot of things too, is-

Pam Allan: By surprise?

Corey Allan: Some of it's by surprise, but for sure, anytime something new... This is a fundamental truth I believe in. That anytime something new in my life, as I'm introduced to it, either intentionally or unintentionally, there's usually some discomfort and some anxiety and some, "Oh no," kind of a thing that I'll react to it because it does take me out of my comfortable world.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Yeah. There's certainly hesitancy when it's unknown.

Corey Allan: Because then I get a chance... Because what happens to me is in our psyche, there's something gets implanted that's like, "Okay, hold on." And then, maybe I circle back to it and I grow into a little more comfortable with it and then I start seeking a little more. Because some people actually enjoy that kind of a thrill of, I want to keep learning new things and I want to... And it's a little bit of a spike, but it's not interpreted as uncomfortable, it's actually interpreted as intriguing or arousing or-

Pam Allan: Well, I think it depends on the topic and if it's something you already have a passion for. And there's some things that maybe we're a little more scared of or leery of, or we assume that someone else that may be introduced something to us as an ulterior motive. And so, there's all these things attached to what it is I might be learning or how I was introduced to it.

Corey Allan: True.

Pam Allan: That kind of threw a little hitch in the get along.

Corey Allan: Let's set the stage then, with the statement you just made, Pam, for where we'll be going in the extended content today is, if something I'm being introduced to is from my spouse, I'm curious if they have an ulterior motive.

Pam Allan: I think there's-

Corey Allan: And I'm going to go ahead and say a fundamental truth.

Pam Allan: [crosstalk .

Corey Allan: Yes, they do have an ulterior motive.

Pam Allan: It may not even be the motive that you're thinking that it is.

Corey Allan: True, but I just think of-

Pam Allan: But I've got an assumption.

Corey Allan: the complexities of the way we are in human communication. That it's a both, and. We've said this in the past, over the episodes that it's not an either or, it's a both, and. That I can say something that I have the best intentions, but there's also the manipulative in there or the ulterior motive in there, or there's a reason why. And it's usually both. And so, it's just recognizing when I'm dealing with these kinds of issues in gridlock and things that happen in my marriage. "Yeah. I mean, this is inaudible phrase, "I have to recognize I'm living with an emotional terrorist and then there's my spouse to deal with too."

Pam Allan: True. I love that phrase.

Corey Allan: So coming up on today's regular, free version of Sexy Marriage. Radio is a couple of your questions and our answers again. And on the extended version, which is deeper, longer, and there's no ads, you can subscribe at We're going to dive into some concepts that are just rolling around in my head. This was the time we're coming off of what should have been last week's... Last weekend would have been the getaway. So we missed the opportunity to see everybody. And that's got me thinking of, where are we going with content and new things that I'm interested in and exploring and curious and intrigued about? And so, I'm going to frame a conversation with you about dealing with gridlock and mind mapping and two choice dilemmas, and then even forced choice dilemmas.

Pam Allan: Oh, okay. That's a new one to me. So here we go. I'll have to get out my school book. Get out my Big Chief tablet.

Corey Allan: So all that's coming up on today's show. So an email from a wife that just came in, Pam. "My husband and I have been listening to your show for about two years and we love it. I'm kind of a binge, two to three show at a time listener instead of a regular every week. I know that you've done several shows lately in the topic of masturbation. And you usually come at it from the solo act done in a time of different needs or levels of separation, et cetera. I'd love to hear your thoughts on masturbation or self-stimulation within a couple's joint experience. My husband and I began experimenting with this about a year ago, and it's been a great addition to our toolbox. Initially, my husband felt a great deal of shame from our church's teaching and some masturbatory experiences that he had as a teen. But within our joint experience, i.e., him stimulating himself while we snuggle naked or I kiss him or assist him in stimulating, et cetera, masturbation is becoming a real erotic and liberating thing for him.
He's the higher desire. Though my desire is usually in direct relation to my tiredness level." Which I think a lot of women might fit into that category, actually.

Pam Allan: Totally normal there.

Corey Allan: So being able to use this lazy sex method that's been referred to by Dr. Steven [Ng 00:08:56], who was a guest on the show years a couple years ago. So being able to use this kind of a method has made it very beneficial in taking a lot of guilt and pressure off of me to perform when I just didn't have the energy because of four kids, we each have careers, et cetera. My husband also loves stimulating himself while watching me masturbate or stimulate myself. Though I have to admit, self stimulation is not really my thing. I do it as a treat for him because he enjoys it so much. And he reciprocates by lots of snugly, cuddly, kissing sex, which is my favorite. Just interested in your thoughts on the topic and how other couples could decrease the shame surrounding the word "masturbation" in a couples setting. Love your show. Keep it up."

Pam Allan: Well, I have to say thanks for the email and putting that out there. Because I think there are a lot of individuals, a lot of couples that there is a stigma around masturbation. And so, hearing the beauty that's come into their relationship from this, and I hopefully that's opening the door right now to a lot of people that are listening. So I really appreciate that email coming in.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. Because that's the one thing we have tried to do over the years with SMR, is how do we de-stigmatize some of the things that are much more natural or at a minimum, much more neutral if you're looking at it through a Christian lens? Because there's a lot of things that the church and then, even God's people, have taken the silence on as a negative rather than, you know what, the silence on it also could be, "Wait, maybe there's nothing wrong." Right? Maybe it's one of the things God's like, "You know what? Okay. Figure it out."

Pam Allan: "I've created it. Enjoy one another."

Corey Allan: And then, you add to it, the whole secretive, rushed, self-focused experience that most people, when they get into the world of masturbation as a teenager, as an adolescent, or a young adult, it is one of those things that it will alter how sex unfolds later, if you're not careful. Because it becomes something that's got to be secretive. It's something that is a little shameful. Because why is it in the human psyche, this is more of a rhetorical question for the SMR nation, but why is it in the human psyche that we get into this arena of thinking that if something is pleasurable, it's wrong?

Pam Allan: Yeah. There is an element of that, right? Somebody else may not be able to enjoy this, so why should I get to enjoy it? Dang it. Or-

Corey Allan: Or it just feels so good, so it must be wrong, must be bad.

Pam Allan: That can be a thing, but hopefully, we get away from that.

Corey Allan: Yeah, and so it's just recognizing that we've always taken the stance that we want masturbation to be something that's not a secret, that it is a way to address and help navigate some of the desire discrepancies that can happen when you have a big gap between levels of desire. That is a way, as she's referencing, of help bridge that gap. It's something he can do. And when he does it in her presence, that's a whole different feel and arena.

Pam Allan: Right? I mean, they're even bringing in the erotic, right? And that's how she's phrasing it, right?

Corey Allan: And that is a great way to do that too, is to bring in the erotic because it is something that's new and novel together that you get to experience together. And that's a vulnerable move. That's a revealing stance if you think about it. And so, I... Kudos, just like you gave her. Kudos to them. And I think it's one of those things that absolutely can enhance a sex life. Because what better way to experience some pleasure and also teach at the same time, some pleasure. Because if you know how to stimulate and what buttons to push or places to touch and how, and the rhythm and the speed and the pressure, it's a great chance for your spouse to actually see that happen and-

Pam Allan: Walk through it with you.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And so, if this is one of those things where you're intrigued with the thought, it can open up some doors to different areas of your marriage, that you can taste some sweetness and some erotic and some different things that can come along.
And so, if you're not even sure how to do this, because there are still people that I keep coming across these in my online, when I'm working with clients. That whenever the subject of, "I'm having trouble with orgasms," or "I've never orgasmed." And I'm like, "Well, have you ever tried by yourself?" And most of the times, "Nah." There's just a-

Pam Allan: There's a stigma for that.

Corey Allan: "I don't want to do it." Right. "I don't want to... I'm uncomfortable with that." So some of the things you can do that can help is, whenever you're together, and I'm just going to use, the husband is stimulating the wife digitally with his fingers. If she's not comfortable of the thought of doing that for herself, one of the things she can do is while he is doing that for her, she could put her hand on his.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Kind of guide him.

Corey Allan: Just be close. Yeah, kind of guide, but also just kind of be there for the ride just to, I'm easing into it. Because this is also the way we talked about at the open. We get introduced to something and we initially can have an aversion or a reaction to it.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: But if I can hover around it, I can, at the same time, start to challenge, what are my thoughts, what are my discomforts, what are my experiences with it? And as I get a little closer to it, I get into this arena of, "You know, what? Hold on. I've been holding myself back. What's this about?" And, "I got to just reframe and grow and evolve in real time towards some of these things that could be a goldmine for us."
Another email that's come in.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So say, "Hey, Dr. Allan, I have a question for you. What's the difference between normal thoughts about sex and lust? I've heard it taught that lust is sin, but what about just normal thoughts about sex? Is there a difference?"
This is one of those tougher ones for us to answer on an air. In some... My initial thought with this, because this is that area where we... Because of the topic and the subject matter we've covered over the years, we constantly are trying to walk that line of we want to give good, helpful information, but not become moral authorities for people. Right?

Pam Allan: Sure.

Corey Allan: And so, I'm hearing this through a biblical lens. Because if you're talking about lust is sin and he's referencing Jesus's words of, "If you look at a woman lustfully, you've already committed adultery in your heart." But are normal thoughts okay about sex?

Pam Allan: And I guess that everybody's got a different normal. So what is that line we're drawing for normal?

Corey Allan: True.

Pam Allan: I don't know.

Corey Allan: True, but if... So let's play a hypothetical then.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So you're going about your day and someone that you have in the category of sexy, on how you think of them, as far as body type look, feel, comfort, everything, comes into your thought process. And it's a sexual leaning thought. Is that a sin?

Pam Allan: Are you sitting there lingering on it?

Corey Allan: I think that's the litmus test. Because I think there are things that just pop into our head that's like, "Oh, wow. Okay."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And they could even be arousing. And I still don't think that's anything we've crossed the line.

Pam Allan: I think what's the intention of your heart? The things that pop in your head though... You talk to the kids and everybody knows that phrase, "trash in trash out". Once you see something, you can't ever get it out of your head.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: And if that's a concern and you've got those issues going on, I think that's where you've got to start with, what do you filter in that goes into your head?

Corey Allan: True.

Pam Allan: And if you do have that biblical, moral compass, live by it in every aspect. Right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: And to me, this litmus test is really, you know it in your heart and your conscious.

Corey Allan: Are you dabbling and hovering around it even a little too closely, or are you fleeing from it and avoiding it?

Pam Allan: And I guess I say that, but there is still this oppressive biblical or religious history that a lot of us have that maybe I've got guilt for something I shouldn't. The masturbation topic we just talked about.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: There's guilt that can be surrounding that. And there's no need for it. Right? When, gosh, this couple that it is, it's wonderful within their marriage.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: So I think that one, a lot of it just comes down to a gut and you know what, "Am I all right with you, Lord?" Okay.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And then, it comes down to what are the meanings of the word? Because lust. I mean, I think lust correlates closely with coveting. I want something that's not mine.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Right? That it's, I put myself involved in a situation that's not mine, that's out of the realm. Because there are going to be times, especially for my kind of creature, that's much more visually stimulated in comparison to a lot of women, if you just talk about the difference between men and women. That there are times where, yes, and this what helped me with the whole pornography struggle.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Was, you see something that's attractive, you see someone that's attractive and it's very easy to just have that embed in there and just keep coming back to it. And that's just stoking a fire. That's just not beneficial. Rather than, you see something that's attractive and even sexually stimulating
and you're like, "Wow, that was a good creation from God." You just kind of honor them as a person of like, "Yes, good looking person." And it's just a reframe. It's just a... but it's not a, "I got to have that." Because I think that's the difference, where you start to get into the deeper longing and drive and desire and interest. And then, you're inserting yourself into that. And then, when you are with the person that you think you should steer these thoughts towards, which would be your spouse, you're still not disconnected from whatever that image was, because this is also the struggle. I think of the different, over the history of my life, the different people that have been embedded in my mind at times. They are skewed. My memories of them, too. Because then when I see them again, it's like, "I don't remember them looking like that." I did enhancements and changes and shifts.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Air brushing it.

Pam Allan: Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, "You're mental airbrushing."

Corey Allan: Exactly what it is. And so, is there anything wrong with sexual thoughts? Absolutely not. My thought is, how do I just recognize the trigger progression and I steer it towards my spouse? That's the whole concept that we've loved at Sexy Marriage Radio is a hundred percent of your sexual energy is steered towards your spouse. It doesn't all come from them though.

Pam Allan: I think biology just says that. Right?

Corey Allan: Right. And that's the world you have to live in, that there are threats in a sense of, "What, you mean there's looking at other people?" Yes, they are. It's just, how do you not long after them?

Pam Allan: If you get out of your house.

Corey Allan: True. But even if you turn on the TV-

Pam Allan: Well, true that. Sorry.

Corey Allan: or any magazine or the internet-

Pam Allan: Or you phone.

Corey Allan: or anything. So it's just recognizing. I think there is a difference and it comes down like you're pointing out, Pam. It comes down to what's each person's definition of, you know in your gut, am I heading towards or away? And as soon as you start enhancing that line better, I think that's how you steer clear and steer it towards your spouse better.
So here's an interesting email that came in, Pam.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So this is from a husband that read an article that I wrote years and years ago, entitled, Heads-up Husbands Five Ways to Ignite Your Wife's Passions. "So my question to you is, what if it was my wife that had an affair, but most of these points in the article still apply to me? I want to trust her more, but I've also been that nice guy who's eager to please. I'm currently working on this, not being this in therapy. But I also feel like she owes it to me to be better about this too. I know a lot could play into this, but I would love to hear your general thoughts about how husbands can apply these five points when it was their wife who had the affair and they're trying to work on their marriage. Thanks."

Pam Allan: Do we need to tap on what the five points are?

Corey Allan: So what he's saying... Yeah. I'll give you the summary of this.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: But what he's saying is these are what he's tried to enhance and becoming more and more, but yet his wife's still stepped up on them, in the relationship. And as we're recording this, there's thunder and lightening and a storm going on here in Texas, so.

Pam Allan: You guys might hear it.

Corey Allan: Maybe there's some dramatic effect with some of the statements that are made.
The concepts I was talking about in this article, which I'll link it in the show notes too, if anybody's interested in just reading the actual article, was the five points are based on the idea is that men make a mistake believing that what women think like they do.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: And then, how a woman feels when she's with a man is the primary factor in whether or not she experienced traction, sexual desire for him, right? It's not necessarily what he looks like. And so a lot of times what men do, and that's what we talk about all throughout SMR, a lot of husbands don't recognize that when they don't take charge of their life well, they're actually not as attractive to their spouse.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Right? And so, the five points are, you need to be able to bring your strength, your presence, your confidence, your integrity, and then you need to have a plan.
And so, what he's saying is, "I feel like I've been following this, yet it didn't keep her from straying." That's what I'm reading in this email.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So what do you do if you're doing that and she's not? You keep doing that.

Pam Allan: Yeah. That's all you... Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because you have to control what you can control. And that's just where I love the framework. And hopefully, not only are you seeking some therapy for yourself, hopefully you're working with somebody together that will help put her feet to the fire too. Because it's this idea of, "Okay, hold on." Not that he is all virtuous in this whole thing. Right? Because I think everything's co-created and there's some blind spots that probably need to be recognized about, "Well, I'm doing pretty well, but I could be doing better." That's the story of us as humans. But it's recognizing. I love the framework of when one spouse steps out on another, it's not, "How could they do this to me?" Which is what I'm almost hearing him say.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Instead it's, "They're doing that to themselves. They're going against themselves." And so, if you're trying to instill a life in a marriage that's built on integrity, you've got to live by it first. And I think that challenges a spouse to have to live by it as well.

Pam Allan: Yeah. And if you're truly living by integrity, you continue in that role no matter how another person is responding. Integrity is integrity, no matter what.

Corey Allan: Right. And so, you have to continually just live the confidence of that and live the strength of that and bring that to bear. And it's not a judgment, morally higher than. It's just a, "Yeah. That difference is seen. That difference is known." And you see how do they confront themselves about what they've done or not? And what are you willing to tolerate?

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because this is the power move by both sides that are happening. Right?

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: That it's him trying to... He's got to recognize, "I have a choice in this too."

Pam Allan: He totally does. Yes.

Corey Allan: I don't know if we've ever done shows in the past where there's been thunderstorms coming along.

Pam Allan: Not like this one. So I don't know if you guys heard the thunder, but it's been quite a show going on [crosstalk 00:26:27].

Corey Allan: Texas thunderstorms.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: They can grow at any time of the day, it seems, in the summer.

Pam Allan: Yeah. They make the whole foundation rumble.

Corey Allan: Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone, particularly if you hung in there through the extended content and did a little theory world with me and Pam, let us know, (214) 702-9565. If there's something we need to go deeper with or explain more or jump on Slack and ask the questions if you're in the academy all the way with us. Thanks for taking time out of your day to spend it with us. We'll see you next time.