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Corey Allan: Welcome to the show. I'm Dr. Corey Allan alongside my wife, Pam, we explore the wisdom and skills of the world's smartest relationship minds. We have in-depth conversations with authors and counselors, psychologists, professors, doctors and specialists, and some shows with just Pam and me. Each episode explores topics every relationship faces and seeks to offer a framework and practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how your relationship works and then helps you frame your conversation is to propel life and marriage forward.
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Coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is an encore of a conversation I had with Dr. Robert Glover about the nice guy. What exactly does that mean? Perhaps you're one of them. And keep in mind today, nice doesn't necessarily mean kind. And on the extended version today, which is deeper longer and there are no ads, you can subscribe at passionatelymarried.net/smracademy. Dr. Glover and I continue the conversation talking about what does it mean to set a tone and show up well. If you like to show, you can help us out by rating and reviewing SMR on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or inaudible. Your comments help spread the word about the show and help others frame their conversations about what happens behind their closed doors. Stay tuned for our conversation with Dr. Glover. Enjoy the show.
Dr. Glover, I'm just going to go with Robert. I mean, come on. We're casual here. Robert.

Robert Glover: I prefer Robert. Thanks, Corey.

Corey Allan: Welcome to the show, man.

Robert Glover: Thanks for the invitation. It's good to see you. Good to talk to you again.

Corey Allan: And so just for a quick bio to the audience, because even though I've referred to you in your work with "No More Mr. Nice Guy" as the book, that is the one that was kick. It kicked me in the groin, in the gut when I read it, because it just... You started meddling soon as I started reading. And I know a lot of the other people that I've referred to or that have come across it say some of the same things, but just fill everybody in on who Robert is just real briefly.

Robert Glover: All right. I just had to smile when I heard you say meddling. I lived in Texas and Arkansas for a few years, several years ago, but I haven't heard meddling in a long time.

Corey Allan: Well, it's not a Mexico term I'm guessing.

Robert Glover: No, no. And as you allude, I now live in Port of Vallarta Mexico, but did live in the Dallas area for a while and went to the same school you did. So yeah, it's good to talk to you. Anda just a little bit about me. I am the author of "No More Mr. Nice Guy." My book came out in 2003, so we're coming up on 15 years. We're actually doing a little bit of a revised, reprint taking out some of the typos, I got to write a new preface for the edition, but it's the same. But yeah, when I wrote "No more Mr. Nice Guy." my background is I have a PhD in marriage and family therapy and I'd done a ton of work with couples, but the book was directed at men and it really came out of my own personal recovery as a nice guy.
I was married to my second wife when I wrote the book and I thought I was a nice guy. I was treating her well. I was doing everything right. And she kept saying, "I can't take your passive aggressiveness. I'd rather be married to a jerk. At least a jerks going to treat you bad all the time. You treat me so well. And then you turn around and you do something that really hurts." So she said, "You need to go get help." And I did. I went and got some help to try to figure out why my being a nice guy didn't make for more appreciative of me.
And along the way, a lot of the guys coming to me for a couple's therapy with their wives or girlfriends were saying the same thing I was, "I'm a nice guy. I'm one of the nicest guys you're ever going to want to meet. I treat my wife well. I treat her better than her ex. I'm raising her kids. I give to her all the time. I try to make her happy, but she's never happy. She's angry all the time. It's never good enough. She never wants to have sex anymore." And I thought, "Man, I can finish these guys' sentences for you." So, I started maybe about 20 plus years ago, I started my first No More Mr. Nice Guy men's group with this handful of guys. And I just, "Hey, I'll write you guys a lesson, a chapter every other week when we meet." And people kept saying, "You should write a book. You should go on Oprah." Well, I kept writing, never got on Oprah, but the book as I said, came out about 15 years ago and man, I get emails every day.
They don't all say meddling, but they say, "Hey, you've been following me around. How'd you know me so well?"

Corey Allan: "Where's the cameras?"

Robert Glover: "I'm going to sue you for invasion of privacy." So, it's really struck a nerve in the book. The sales of the book go up every year after 15 years. So, word of mouth spreads. Therapists recommend it. Guys like you on podcast recommend it. And I get a lot of positive response from women as well, both in terms of them telling me that they can see themselves in those nice guy or co-dependent tendencies is really what it is. And a lot of women say, "Thank you. I understand my husband a lot better. It makes sense now why maybe he lies to me when he doesn't need to or why he's avoidant or why he won't just make a decision or why he won't tell me no."

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: And a lot of guys tell me that they found the book when an ex-wife or ex-girlfriend gave them the book. So, women seem to appreciate it.

Corey Allan: "So, I hear you need to read this."

Robert Glover: Yeah. "You need to read this. It's too late for us."

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Robert Glover: "But here, I love you."

Corey Allan: Yeah. So, this will help you down the road. So, if you were to characterize in some short and informed, what are the characteristics of a nice guy? Just so that we can be on the same page. Because some people, this might be a new idea where they've already even just hearing what you've said, they might be going, "Okay, hold on. Now I'm hearing some of those things too." So what would you say are some of just the succinct characteristics that put you in the nice guy category?

Robert Glover: Okay. That's good question. So, basically a nice guy has internalized inaccurately some core beliefs, usually beginning very early in childhood. Maybe often beginning even before having any conscious awareness or language abilities. So, we're talking maybe a few months old, few years old. So, it's an emotional internalization, a belief about self and the world. And basically the nice guy, if you had to put it just in a nutshell, nice guy doesn't believe he's okay just as he is. He has to become what he thinks other people want him to be, to be liked and loved. And he has to hide those things about him that he thinks other people might disapprove of.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Or reject him or have a negative reaction. So, there's no real him there. There's no authentic self. There's this trying to become something and trying to hide something. Usually both are going on at the same time. And how that usually manifests, is in pleasing behavior, care-taking behavior.I used the word codependency. I actually never used the word codependency in the book.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Because I wanted to address this dynamic in men because up to that time, nobody had ever even addressed codependency in men. All the books were directed at women or maybe spouses of alcoholics. And so I avoided the word just cause I wanted people to be able to get a look at who this guy is without a preconceived idea what codependency is. But a codependent, basically somebody that gets their sense of self through connection with others. There's no strong sense of self. If you approve of me, if you value me, okay, then I can improve of me and value me. If you don't then I don't either. So, that's the core dynamic of co-dependency.

Corey Allan: That's fantastic. So the idea, I love the... Because it's a dual thing you're talking about here that I'm hiding, but yet I'm trying to please.

Robert Glover: I'm hiding and trying to please at the same time and everything gets externalized. There's no internal sense of self or as psychologist would say an internal locus of control or identity. And so it is like the nice guy's licking his finger and holding it up in the breeze to see which way the wind's blowing and who can I be in this situation or with this person. And so we have different persona at work, different persona with friends, different persona at church, different persona with our partner or-

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: ... people were dating and it just changes. And that's what I found is so frustrating for most women is they just don't know who this person is. And they're always guessing what he wants, what he feels, what he thinks, what's the truth. And I have a lot of empathy for the women in my life in the past where I was a nice guy, tons of empathy, because I wouldn't make a decision. I wouldn't say "Let's do this. Oh, whatever you want to do."

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: "Okay, sure. If you want to." "What do you want to do tonight?" I wouldn't tell the truth if I thought it would upset anybody never asked for what I wanted. So yeah, it's not fun to live with a nice guy.

Corey Allan: No, no. That's quite the dilemma for both parties in a marriage because you've got a woman that you're describing that's in a relationship with a nice guy. And they're trying to read who this guy is while at the same time, he's trying to read her in what she wants.

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So-

Robert Glover: And good luck with that on both sides

Corey Allan: Talking about a vicious cycle.

Robert Glover: And the thing that I've heard from women the most, especially when couples counseling is, they'll say, "He can be such a great guy." And everybody I know says, "Oh, you're so lucky. He's such a nice guy." But as I write about real early in the book, nice guys are often anything but nice-

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: ... because we won't make a decision. We won't tell the whole truth. We'll leave things out if we think we'll get a reaction. We'll hide things. Nice guys often have a lot of hidden secretive behaviors even while trying to look really good on the outside. Like for example, I'm told the state of Utah, which of course is highly Mormon. So, you had a bunch of Christians trying to look really good has the highest use of pornography of any state in the union.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: So, when the harder you're trying to look good, the more things you have to hide about yourself.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: And guess what the number one thing most nice guys hide? It is their sexuality.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, if that's the one side of this that your work and the book when I was introduced to you, because it's an interesting thing. It's one of our professors at TW is how I found out about you with Dr. Jennings. Because when I was talking to him about something I had written, he's like, "You've got to find Dr. Glover and connect with him." And I'm like, "Who's that?" And so that's a fascinating small world connection there.

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: But one of the interesting things is if you've got this as a characteristics of what makes up a nice guy, what's the opposite of that? What's the point or the goal for a man or a husband then? If it's not happy, wife equals happy life, which is the myth. That's the way I've conceptualized a lot of what you do that if that's my drive, I just want to make her happy.

Robert Glover: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like if mom ain't happy, nobody ain't happy.

Corey Allan: Exactly. Those are phrases thrown around easily, but there's a lot of under current destruction in that. So, what's the opposite or the gold then?

Robert Glover: That's a good question. And then also made me think of something else that we can talk about in terms of the guy, of the man consciously setting the tone, the emotional tone in relationship, rather than leaving that to the woman. But it's a good question. And a lot of people, most of us are fairly black and white in our thinking. And so when people say, "Okay, well this guy wrote a book No More, Mr. Nice Guy. Why would somebody write a book teaching men to not be nice? What's he teaching them? To be a jerk."

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: "To be the creep."

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: "To be a bad man." That's just a natural logical thing. And a lot of guys will come to me and say, "Well, okay, I get it to being the nice guy, being passive, being avoidant, trying to please all the time seeking external validation. I get that doesn't work. It's not serving me well, but let's say, but I don't want to go like be the jerk. So, where the middle ground there?" And I tell guys, "I don't know where the tipping point is between two dysfunctional extremes."
And I don't try to help guys find a middle ground between being too nice and too not nice because actually both a nice guy and the jerk are motivated and driven by the same things, which is usually toxic shame and trying to manage their anxiety. The nice guy manages his anxiety and hides his toxic shame through what we might call the flight or the freeze mechanism of survival, whereas the jerk or the bully or the aggressive one tries to manage his anxiety through the fight-

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: ... mechanism. So, they're both really the same person.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: They're just trying to manage their anxiety and manage their sense of toxic shame.

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Robert Glover: So, when I talk about what's the alternative, I talk about what I call the integrated male. We could call it lots of inaudible.

Corey Allan: Yeah, absolutely. I've heard it expressed a bunch of ways. Yeah.

Robert Glover: Lots of terms. There's no right way to put it, but in my mind that involves a person's ability to soothe their anxiety in order to be more present in the moment, to be more honest and transparent, to be more differentiated. And you and I were talking about David Snart, who you're going to go work with. And he talks a lot about differentiation course, and passionate marriage. And we talked about, he got that from Murray Bowen for your listeners out there that want to do their homework. But a differentiated self is a person who's able to ask himself, "What do I want?"

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: "What feels right? What's important to me?" And then can follow through on that even when there's pressure from the outside to conform or get back in line.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Like the crabs trying to pull you back into the bucket when make your escape and continue with that differentiate itself even when the anxiety or the neurotic guilt between your own ears says, "Oh no, I'm going to get in trouble. Oh no, somebody's not going to like this." So, the integrated male is able to self soothe his anxiety rather than trying to manage his anxiety by manipulation. And that's what nice guys do.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: They manipulate every situation. They operate by something I call covert contracts. And we'll talk more about that.

Corey Allan: Well, yeah, just step on you for a second. That's one of my favorite phrases from you is just conceptualizing the whole idea of how we have a lot of contracts in our life. And most when they're covert, we got major issues that can come up. Because this isn't just a male specific thing in that regard, because it's also is where expectations fit into play and some of that stuff.

Robert Glover: Well, you're a marriage therapist. Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen this through your history and I have too. And after 30 plus years of working with couples, I would say it's probably unrealistic and often unspoken expectations-

Corey Allan: Yep.

Robert Glover: ... of what you my partner are supposed to be doing for me to make me happy and satisfied. That really is the cancer that eats away at so many marriages.

Corey Allan: Right. And so the covert contract label of that is spot on just because I think that's what really reeks so much havoc like you're talking about that. I go to bed mad because something with my wife didn't happen, but I never told her what I was wanting to have happened.

Robert Glover: Yeah. So, let me just even just spell those out for your listeners real quickly.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Robert Glover: The nice guy syndrome basically has three covert contracts. So, these are hidden, sometimes unconscious contracts. And of course, because they are covert, nobody else knows about them and we don't even often know about them.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Until we're resentful or pissed off or having a victim puke or a passive aggressive. But so the three nice guy covert contracts, they're all form of an if, then paradigm.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Robert Glover: And the first one is IF. If I'm a good guy, then people will like me and love me. And usually added to that for the nice guy and the person who I want to have sex with will want to have sex with me.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Robert Glover: Because I'm a good guy.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: And I work a lot with single men as well and teaching men how to consciously date in very authentic ways. And I try to steer men away from what I call nice guy seduction. If I go really slow, really let the woman get to know me, never do anything that will rock the boat or upset or if I'm different than those jerks, I've heard women complain about, if I do enough nice things for her, if I help her sister move, if I buy her things, if I solve her money problems.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: That's nice guy seduction.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Robert Glover: If I do all these, then you'll like me, love me. And even in marriage, okay. If I tell my wife "Go upstairs. I'll get the kids taken care of. I'll get dishes done. You go take a bubble bath. Go relax." But we don't tell her that we have a contract.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: That if I do these nice things, then you're going to want to have sex with me later on. And then when we get upstairs and she's falling asleep in the bed with the book on her chest and the light's still on and we get in bed and now we're all pissy.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Robert Glover: Because, "Hey, I did these things. I thought we're going to have sex."

Corey Allan: I thought we had an agreement.

Robert Glover: Yeah. And she just goes, "Oh, finally. Porfin. I get to relax and read a book." And he's such a nice guy until the next morning when she wakes up, we're on a foul move.

Corey Allan: And you're still mad. Yes.

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: I've been there.

Robert Glover: So yeah, I am too. So covert contract number one, if I'm a good guy, you'll like me, love me, appreciate me and want to have sex with me when I want to have sex.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Covert contract number two. If I meet your needs without you having to ask, then you will meet my needs without me having to ask. Now, this is where the often passive aggressive behavior of nice guys and their victim pukes often come in. "I've been doing all these things for you and you haven't done any of these things back for me that I expect." But I never really asked for. And the problem is we're terrible scorekeepers. We're keeping the, you know, the board up there. "I got all these points on my side. Look, you've been a terrible partner. You haven't done these things back."

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: But the problem is, our partners are just people in general don't know that we had a contract because we did things for them that we're supposed to figure out what they're supposed to be doing for us. Now unfortunately, nice guys are often surround themselves with people who aren't very good at giving. We're not very clear at asking for what we want and we're terrible receivers. It makes us uncomfortable when actually people give to us.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Because then we feel emotionally indebted.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Robert Glover: Now all of a sudden we owe them something or we're going to be in trouble. So that's covert contract number two. Covert contract number three is if I do everything right, then I will have a smooth problem free world. Now, of course, we can't do everything right. You mentioned before the broadcast that high percentage of your listeners or Christians.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Robert Glover: Well, the core message of Jesus was you can't do everything right. You can't be good enough. You can try all you want.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: You're never going to make it. So, that's the point that we think, "Well, if I'm just good enough, I'll have a smooth problem free life." But as we all know, life is not smooth and problem free.

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Robert Glover: Life by nature is chaotic. Relationships by nature are chaotic.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Robert Glover: So, those three covert contracts often lead to a lot of not nice behavior-

Corey Allan: Correct.

Robert Glover: ... from nice guys. And a lot of frustration from the people in a relationship with the nice guy.

Corey Allan: All right. So, if we've got this idea of, we're trying to now become more integrated as humans or with your target audience as men, because that's the one thing that even with the stuff I've introduced of yours to couples or had conversations with my wife or listeners and use some of this verbiage, it still rings true because there's a human characteristic to it that-

Robert Glover: Oh yes.

Corey Allan: ... that male is not gender specific. Right?

Robert Glover: It's not, I just happen to write to men. And because of that, most of my work is with men. But as I said, I get a lot of fan mail from women and say that they can see themselves in it as well.

Corey Allan: Right. Right. And so I think that warrants at least noting, because there's really good value in seeing how do I do some of these things. Maybe not the way they manifest themselves in the way you describe it, but there's, semblances of it. There's a fundamental characteristic that's completely similar. And so if we're trying to work to becoming more integrated or authentic or real or solid is a phrase I use a lot on the show that-

Robert Glover: Sure.

Corey Allan: ... that one of the points is how do I stand more solidly on my own two feet in my life and in my relationships? What are some steps or the advice that you would give of... Okay. So I'm recognizing this kind of stuff. I'm seeing it. I'm hearing it from my partner or we're listening to this episode together and my wife is looking at me going "Yeah, there's one. Yep. There's another one." All this stuff's being pointed out. So, how do we start? What's the next step? I guess, is to say.

Robert Glover: Okay, one of the things I make really clear in the book and I make clear with people I talk to. And really doesn't matter what it is you're trying to work on or change or alter in your life. And I tell people, it doesn't matter if you decided to quit drinking or if you want to work on your codependency or if you just found Jesus.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: The formula is the same. And that is we need support systems and daily practices.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Robert Glover: And if you look at AA, they give you support system and daily practices.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Robert Glover: If you look at Christianity, they give you support system and daily practices. You look at Buddhism, they give you support system and daily practices. And that's what I try to do with the men and women that I work with. And so the roadmaps we are using as men and women, as adults were fundamentally formed in the first few months and years of our life.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Robert Glover: Right? And I know you've probably done some of your own studying work around brain development, but for example, anybody's raised kids, your kids don't actually start talking till approaching two years old. Why? Their brain just wasn't wired to do it. Children start developing a differentiated self around two years old. They start saying "Me, myself, no, I'm going to." Unfortunately we call that the terrible twos in Western culture, but it is a very healthy, essential, developmental stage-

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Robert Glover: ... in human development and brain development. And then around four to five years old, the brain starts wiring itself enough to actually have some visual memories of experiences that we maybe as adults, if we look back at our very earliest experiences, probably about as early as we can go back is about four. Occasionally people say they remember something from three or two, but often maybe they saw a picture of it or heard a story about it. Because the brain just doesn't store visual memory at that young age.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: So, what it does store is emotional memory. And when we were born the part of our brain on our brain stem, the amygdala is fully online. That's the fight, flight, free survival part of our brain. And scientists, theorize that it stores up emotional memory. And so that means when we're just a few weeks, few months, few years old before we can ask for what we want.
Oh and by the way, the prefrontal cortex, the thinking reasoning part of the human brain in men, doesn't finish wiring itself in developing to about age 25.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: That's why our car insurance went down at 25. The insurance companies realized for some reason, men quit doing stupid stuff around 25. Well, the prefrontal cortex, the reasoning decision making part of the brain finally finished getting developed. But what happened when we were very small is whatever our life experiences were, if we were cold, if we were hungry, if we were lonely, if we were wet or dirty, whatever the needs were, if they were not met in a timely judicious comforting way, if we didn't have attachment and love from at least one, hopefully both parents, if we didn't have connection, we internalized emotionally not intellectually because we didn't have that ability.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: But we internalized, if we could put it in words that core belief that there is something wrong with me. Now, the amygdala that stores up that emotional memory of self is hardwired into every other part of the brain. It's also hardwired into our receptors, our eyes, our ears, our sense of smell, taste, and touch. And it gets signals before the thinking part of the brain does.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: That's why sometimes, we will have a reaction to something and our heart's beating fast and our palms are sweating before we can even think about what just happened.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: Okay. When we internalize the emotional belief about who we are and how we fit into the world at a very early age, that then came to inform how we think-

Corey Allan: Yep.

Robert Glover: ... about ourselves and the world at a later age. It's our machine language, our operating system used to be our dos. It's a firmware that's running the machine. We load the software on top of it. So, we don't know though that's, what's influencing how we think about ourself and the world. We don't know that.

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: We all think our thoughts about ourselves in the world are perfectly 100% rational and logical.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Robert Glover: And why wouldn't everybody else see things exactly the way we do, but they're not. They're based on inaccurately, internalized emotional sense of self in the world that then informs the rest of our thinking. So. If we're going to change that stuff, we didn't internalize that on our own. We're not going to change it on our own. That's why we need the support systems.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Robert Glover: Whether that is a church, a Bible study group, a men's group, a therapist, a coach, we need support systems. And for example, like for shedding toxic shame, if we're walking around thinking, well, because I think these thoughts, or I've done these things in the past, I'm this terrible person. And people only knew me. They wouldn't want to be close to me. They wouldn't love me. And then we go share that with safe people in a 12 step group and a Bible study group and with a therapist. And when then they don't react negatively and they're actually are very supportive and loving and nurturing. You can let go-

Corey Allan: Right.

Robert Glover: ... of those inaccurate beliefs about who I have to be, to be loved. So we need those support systems. And I'm 61. I started doing my own personal recovery 25 years ago. I still have a coach. I still do my work because I'm still evolving and I'm still running into new stuff. Second thing then is our support systems other is daily practices.
And again, it doesn't matter if you're a Buddhist, if you're a Christian, if you're a recovering alcoholic, if you're recovering nice guy, we need stuff to help keep our mind focused on what's important, what our core values are to keep us thinking about our day ahead, the day behind, what we learned, what we want to do, better, what we want to work on, how we want to be more conscious, more present, more loving, more compassionate. And so for me, every morning, I do some meditation. I read some good books. I spend some quiet time, alone outdoors. I have some things that feed my soul that help keep my mind directed in the direction that I want it to go. So, those are the two things that I preach is support systems and daily practices.

Corey Allan: And that's good, because if you think about it, we have those in either positive or negative ways already. Either by default or intentionality.

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: It's who we surround ourselves with that are either really challenging us or just yes men and yes women. And because you make the comment of a victim puke and where we'll just start unloading a bunch of stuff. And sometimes we can surround ourselves with that where it just truly is a gripe session and I walk away feeling worse.

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Because it was all group think and nobody actually was differentiated enough or solid enough to say, "Hold on. Is that really accurate?" Because the thing I'm fascinated with is looking at some of the brain science and the waves we can rewire some of those pathways.

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Dan Siegel's work with Mindsight comes to mind of being able to have the brain look in on itself from the prefrontal cortex to the amygdala is just fascinating to me to think-

Robert Glover: Yeah.

Corey Allan: ... that's what our brain does. And so my counsel for a lot of clients that get caught in some of these cycles is talk to yourself and today's technology is great, because you can do it in your car and people think you're just talking on the phone. Right?

Robert Glover: And you don't look like a crazy person.

Corey Allan: Yeah, you don't look like somebody just talking to yourself. But it's just that idea of being able to say it. Your brain hears it from a different part of the brain than the amygdala. And so that's a reconnection of it if you will. And that's the kind of stuff that's so just powerful to me to see how we can evolve and shift just by, I mean, I'm guessing from what you're describing, one of the best things that a person can do when they hear this stuff is realize, "Okay, wait, this is me. I'm seeing semblances of this. This is ringing real true. So, now maybe I need to look at my support structure. Maybe I need to look at who do I do life with?" And that's a start or I need to look at "What do I do? What are my practices? What are some of the things that I do that are in line with who I want to be or not?"

Robert Glover: Right. And the terms that I use is, well, these aren't my terms, but mindfulness or consciousness.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Robert Glover: So, just making a conscious decision about how I want to walk the planet, how I want to live every day. And some of the most simple things that a person can do in any situation is just when you feel stressed, when you feel reactive, when you feel critical, negative, down, whatever, take just a moment, breathe, just focus on your breath or just take a pause and then question your perceptions because most of the time we're stressed about stuff we believe to be true as mark Twain said, just ain't.

Corey Allan: It's always great to have Dr. Glover back on or even to hear him again.

Pam Allan: Yeah. Some great insight.

Corey Allan: Like this week's episode-

Pam Allan: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: ...because there's some huge takeaways that come from his work. So I remember when I first got "No More Mr. Nice Guy" read the thing in two days, felt like he was kicking me in the groin the whole time because he hitting so close to home-

Pam Allan: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: ... because the whole idea of the nice guy is just like... The stands out to me from the show is just the reminder of you just don't feel good in who you are.

Pam Allan: Mm.

Corey Allan: And so you try to find it from everywhere around you.

Pam Allan: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: And I even heard in a book that I'm listening to right now, different type, different author that he's like 70, 80% of men don't feel good in who they are at some point in their life, if not the entirety of it. And we need that to change. And I don't know where the stat came from, but it's like, "That's a huge amount of people."

Pam Allan: Yeah. Well, I'm immediately hearing that and thinking, I don't know that's that par for many women too.

Corey Allan: inaudible.

Pam Allan: So just for what it's worth. But it's interesting when you read it, you say, you felt like you're getting kicked in the gut or the groin. And I love the question of what's my next step. What does it look like to not be there? Because so often even in with women, when the sexual inaudible what would turn you on? Well, I don't know. And so you may read this, you look in it. Am I a nice guy? What does it look like to not be a nice guy?

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: I don't know. So, having those next steps practical, next steps really makes so much sense and it's so useful.

Corey Allan: Yeah, because it's so imperative that we do life with other people.

Pam Allan: Mm. Yeah.

Corey Allan: And have guys in our corner and women in our corner if you're a female listening. Because the nice guy, yeah, it's targeting men, but it applies to both. Right? It's pleasers.

Pam Allan: Mm. Right.

Corey Allan: It's poses. All of us can be better. And Dr. Glover brings that home every time I get a chance to have a conversation with him. Thanks again to our guest, Dr. Robert Glover. If you want to hear more from him, he's been a regular here at Sexy Marriage Radio. You can go to episode 326, positive emotional tension, episode 425, testing solidness and episode 558, roommates, not lovers. All of those are worth the listen. Jump back in the archives. Every so often we'll bring archives up to today like we did today. Transcripts are available in the show notes on each of the episodes pages. All our advertisers deals and discount codes are also available on each of the episodes pages at passionatelymarried.net. Please consider supporting those who support the show. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with your friends and those that you care about. And remember, we improve those around us when we improve ourselves. So, take on yourself first by applying what you hear on our show each week. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time.