On today’s regular version of the show …

A couple of voicemails from members of the SMR Nation sharing some reframes of topics we’ve previously covered. One, the differences between thinkers and feelers. And two, masturbation.

On the Xtended version …

A deeper look at the orgasm gap in marriages today.

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Transcript of Episode

Dr. Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio. Alongside my wife Pam. As always,

Pam: I’m here with you, baby.

Dr. Corey Allan: We’re having straightforward, honest conversations about married life, love sex. What makes it better, what doesn’t, what are the hurdles? And the way we know which hurdles to tackle and try to help you clear is those that call us and ask us or share what’s on their mind. And you can do that by dialing in at (214) 702-9565. Could send an email, you can record a message and send it to our inbox at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com.

Pam: We love having those.

Dr. Corey Allan: Absolutely. And you can also jump on iTunes, leave us a comment, rate and review the show. Do the same on Stitcher, Spotify, iHeartRadio, however you choose to listen, Google play. But we’re so glad that you take the time out of your day every week to spend it with us. We also ask you to share the word about Sexy Marriage Radio because the hotbed for sex is marriage, and we only want to make that better for you and your relationship.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: So this episode of Sexy Marriage Radio is brought to you by the Sexy Marriage Radio Academy where we have two different levels. You can join on the Extended and just get the Extended contents. You can do that on a monthly or a year-long and save some money. And you can also Go All the Way with us into the Academy where you get the Extended content plus chats, monthly coaching calls, and a whole lot more. You can find out more at SMRnation.com/smracademy.

Dr. Corey Allan: So coming up on today’s regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio, we have a couple of messages that came in from some real active members of the Sexy Marriage Radio nation, where they are sharing not only just their thoughts that will help the Sexy Marriage Radio nation.

Pam: Okay.

Dr. Corey Allan: Also then steering it into questions and so this is going to be a little bit of a hybrid-

Pam: All right.

Dr. Corey Allan: … show of they’re going to help do the show-

Pam: I love that.

Dr. Corey Allan: … in some regards. And then if you’re on the extended version, which is deeper and twice as long and no ads, you could subscribe at SMRnation.com. Pam and I are going to have a in depth look at this idea of the orgasm gap that exists in relationships.

Pam: Okay.

Dr. Corey Allan: So all that’s coming up on today’s show,

Speaker 4: Good morning, Corey and Pam. I’m listening to episode 420 and the discussion of thinkers and emoters. And I have tremendous sympathy for the caller because I am also the feeler in my relationship. And something that has been very beneficial to me over the last several weeks is the idea that when I am defining a problem and something that I feel, I really am surrendering my responsibility even to manage that for myself, to find a solution for myself, to take the loving action and just love myself through that feeling. And it’s been tremendously helpful. And I just wonder if the caller couldn’t reframe what she’s thinking and what she’s feeling as the problem here is that he doesn’t do the things that I want him to do and it’s more I’m not being, doing the caring of myself that I need to do in those moments where I’m feeling that lack?

It also brings up the idea, and this is also kind of revolutionized the way I’m thinking, is why am I even married in the first place? Am I married to get love or am I married to grow in my understanding of love and then to give out of that abundance of love? And it’s not easy. These processes are not pleasant always to work through. The feelings that I feel as I’m working through them aren’t tremendous, but I would love it if you would explore this idea and this reframing of the thinking that I’m doing into how do I solve my own problem rather than putting that problem at the feet of my spouse and have them solve it for me.

Thanks for all you do. Peace

Pam: Peace to you, too. And thanks for calling. I love his question that he asks, why am I married?

Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam: And to really have that reflection of why did I get married in the first place? You may be asking this question though, 30 years in, and you get a different answer now than you would have-

Dr. Corey Allan: Sure.

Pam: … way back then.

Dr. Corey Allan: Sure.

Pam: But that’s a valid question to ask yourself and realize-

Dr. Corey Allan: what is this all for?

Pam: What is it for? We all have that self-reflection times throughout our life on various aspects of our life. But his specific questions were, you know, why am I married? To be loved or to give love? Which is it? Is it either of those? And if I’m there just to try and be loved, I’m just hearing old Jerry McGuire, you complete me kind of thing. Right?

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: And if that’s the only reason we’re married, we might be getting a brick our heads against the wall.

Dr. Corey Allan: And then that’s something we fight all the way through. I mean, the clients that I have that are new coming in when I spring upon them the idea that I believe in, which is the premise of Sexy Marriage Radio is the idea of marriage is designed to help us grow up. Period. It’s not for happily ever after. We hope that comes along.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: But there’s something else at play, and that’s mainly the idea that your marriage is working on you more than you do on it. And so the way this caller is framing this is, am I coming at this because I want love where I’m trying to be and be loved or am I coming at this because I want to give love? And I’m going to venture the guess that it’s going to be both. That’s why we get in relationships.

Pam: I mean ideally that comes around, but what’s your ultimate purpose?

Dr. Corey Allan: Sure. It seems like that’s going to be something you fall back on when things don’t go the way you were hoping or wishing or deep down longing and you can have the wherewithal and the courage to ask yourself, what is this really all for? And if I can reframe that meaning into, wait, this is going to help me increase my ability to love. And maybe, and this is what I love that stands out to me from his call is maybe I’ve got it wrong in that I don’t necessarily always have to direct that love towards other people or my spouse. First, I’ve got to direct a little bit of it toward myself. And I’ve got to look at, okay, I’ve got these issues. I’ve got these things that have been wreaking havoc in my marriage where I’ve been wanting a spouse to emote like I do. We referenced episode 420 and that’s where we’ve unpacked the idea of thinkers versus feelers.

Dr. Corey Allan: And typically speaking, a thinker is married to a feeler and vice versa. Some of the crux of our issues can be you don’t emote the way I do, so therefore what’s wrong with you?

Pam: Right. Right. Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: Or you don’t think the way I do. So what’s wrong with you? You know? Rather than asking the question like he’s saying, what could be wrong with me? Maybe there’s something in here with me and so, kudos to the idea of just trying to expand into how do I give love? How do I solve some of these myself rather than expect my spouse to do it? Because in a lot of ways that’s exactly what we talk about with all the episodes here is if I present something worth wanting and I’m working towards being better and being lovable, I really challenged my spouse to be on board with that or not.

Pam: Yeah, and you may not like it. And if they’re not, you’re not going to like the results and-

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: … make some decisions. Right?

Dr. Corey Allan: It makes it a really tough one because it does uncover a lot of the dynamic between you that’s been going on all along, and we’ve been trying to navigate it by just fixing each other rather than fixing self and facing clearly this is the dynamic at at work.

Pam: Right. But when you’re looking at what is my purpose, what am I in this for? And you can come to some resolution there.

Dr. Corey Allan: Sure.

Pam: There’s a lot of peace that comes with that.

Dr. Corey Allan: Absolutely, there is.

Pam: Whatever you emote with the decisions that you make at that point they’re coming from your core.

Dr. Corey Allan: But I think you have to add the caveat to this whole equation, Pam, of I cannot do this just on a relational level. I’ve got to do it on a global level of my life. That it’s not just why am I married? It’s also what is the essence of why I’m here? What makes me matter in the world? What’s the bigger story I’m a part of? Because if I put all of the onus on my partner and whether they’re satisfying what ails me in struggles or whatever or not, then all of a sudden, I’ve got, I don’t have cooperative systems working in my life. I’m expecting it all from one, which is going to suck each other dry.

Pam: Sure. And I guess that makes sense because life is not a vacuum. You know.

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: Each little segment of your life is not its own separate little vacuum that’s not affected by the other.

Dr. Corey Allan: Well, and this goes back to what we talked about last week with Dr. Glover, that he makes reference in there that we need to have a lot of cooperative systems in our life that meet some of the needs that my spouse couldn’t.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: Right? And then so it’s that element of how am I living with appropriate levels of apartness and how am I living with appropriate levels of togetherness? And I’m all within healthy boundaries, but I do the things that really make me tick in the marriage and out of the marriage because it’s too often when we have, you know, it’s that concept of if you’ve got a painful relationship, it consumes most of your energy.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: But if it’s going well, then all of a sudden you’ve got a chance to look at other things too because you don’t need as much. And so, it’s how do you have the courage to, even when there’s a lot of issues going on in your marriage, how do you also make sure you’ve shored up the rest of your life to take a little pressure off your marriage? Because I think that can put good pressure on the marriage that is basically saying, “You know what? I don’t need you. I want you along this journey, but I don’t need you for my existence.” And there’s something in our psyche when I have a spouse that says that to me in some way, shape, or form, I typically will have a little more impetus to, I’d need to make sure I’m in this if I want it.

Pam: How do you find that people do that when they’re in the midst of struggle? Right? Lots of times when you’re in that realm, you can’t see the forest for the trees.

Dr. Corey Allan: So then it becomes a critical mass thing of… I mean, let me just go with the clients that I have and that’s a great opportunity because they’re right there for a purpose of helping me fix the marriage issues I’ve got. And when I come at them with some of this, well, what else are you doing in your life that really is fulfilling? Because too often we just make it to where the primary focus is just the marriage, and I forget everything else in my life.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And so I’ve got to start at least shoring up, you know what? I used to love having a glass of wine with my girlfriends. I used to love going to play basketball. I used to love be out in nature. You know, all these things that I used to do that I’m not doing anymore. So start doing those. And what we find is I start feeling a little better about myself because I got other things in my life that are collaborating with me well. And again, this is all with appropriate boundaries.

Pam: Sure.

Dr. Corey Allan: But I start to have a concept of, I start to just live a little more full in the cake of my life, and I make the relationship the icing on the cake, not the other way around.

Pam: And that sounds to me like it’s throughout life you’ve got to have outside forces.

Dr. Corey Allan: Yes.

Pam: That whether it’s people you’re in contact with that see, “Hey, what’s your deal? Why don’t you, what’s going on? Something’s not right. What are you not doing right?” Right? Whether it’s just a good friend or a group of friends or a therapist or whatever you need, that is that third party that’s going to also see it, right. Don’t get cooped up in your own little world.

Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah. That’s the idea that we are relational beings, and I think that’s plural. It’s not just one relationship. We have primary relationships. Yes. But we are relational.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And so, how do I make sure I have a good system in place of several cooperative relationships that are all in my corner?

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: That are at to my advantage and for their advantage.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: So it’s a reciprocal thing.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And then that’s the iron sharpens iron. That’s where we see the depth. And so this is kind of what he’s talking about. What I hear is I take it on my own and I don’t just make it at the foot of my spouse because sometimes it means I reach out to some other people or I call into a show at (214) 702-9565.

Pam: Right. Truly, yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And I create a relationship that way.

Pam: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Hi, Corey and Pam. First of all, love, love, love yourself.

Something that I resonated with in a recent episode was the fact that husband masturbation is often tainted in marriage due to a history of porn masturbation. And in today’s times, I feel nearly every marriage experiences this to some degree. Depending on many variables such as duration, frequency, loss of function, et cetera, a man’s masturbation ends up in a place somewhere between tainted to weaponized within the marriage. Also, within the betrayed wife’s heart.

Porn masturbation has a very painful meaning as betrayal to most wives. And once masturbation is connected to betrayal, do we just steer clear of this painful lens or do we find the courage to work toward a new meeting, a safe and healthy one?

I feel that in advanced stages of betrayal trauma recovery, a wife can choose for a refrain. It’s definitely huge and can be incredibly multidimensional. Some of the questions that I posed for myself as I chose this reframe are, one, do I want this betrayal to have a residual power over me, my husband or relational limitation at any level? Number two, as a consequence of my husband’s fall to porn, do I want masturbation as a recovered man to be permanently tainted? And number three, in my youth as a female, my sexual development was largely discouraged, and while it’s a very different case, do I want my husband to experience a segmented shut down of sorts or a redirect? And number four, what would a higher level of healing look like for myself, my husband and our marriage, if I can stretch myself out there and slowly, under my direction and control, begin to ask for his self-touch and stimulation in our marriage bedroom relationship?

And number five, can I and am I strong enough to create a new and safe lens around my husband’s masturbation that can take away the power of the porn betrayal lens? I feel a refrain from the porn connection that effectively tainted masturbation to a more healthy lens that focuses on the marriage relationship could be a helpful show for those that are well into betrayal recovery, or possibly the subject is just too painful, too triggering, and too inflammatory. But believe me when I say the pain and the struggle are definitely real.

Have a great day.

Dr. Corey Allan: She’s spot on with the different points she’s talking about

Pam: Yeah, it’s very well thought through. She’s dealt with it. She’s one that’s totally grown up, I would say, in looking at this from all aspects. Kind of rounding it from the initial pain that a wife feels. Right? And then in trying to reframe, because we don’t… I don’t think we’ve ever said masturbation is bad. It is not bad.

Dr. Corey Allan: No.

Pam: But when there’s been, when it’s caused conflict in the marriage… Anything in life can cause conflict.

Dr. Corey Allan: Yep.

Pam: Right?

Dr. Corey Allan: Yep.

Pam: And anything done to extremes can be bad. We’re talking food. We’re talking sleep. You name it. When you overuse it-

Dr. Corey Allan: Right. Right.

Pam: … it can be used improperly. And so she’s come at this from such a beautiful perspective of trying to grow up in her marriage and her sexual relationship and in her sexuality and her husband’s and-

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: But that’s a struggle.

Dr. Corey Allan: It is.

Pam: It’s hard. You’ve got to be grown up to do this.

Dr. Corey Allan: And the biggest shift that she talked about was just the idea of recognizing that it’s what surrounds it, that you’ve got to separate it from.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: Right?

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: That’s the issue because it’s tainted with porn and masturbation. That’s the way she framed it rather than just the masturbation alone.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: And that’s one of the counsels I’ve given on the show in the past for husbands that have struggled with it because this is what has helped me tremendously in my journey early on was separating the two and dealing with pornography was not a good addition. But masturbation in and of itself, hey, that’s a little different. I need to deal with what are the messages surrounding that that I believed thought was unspoken, was spoken with what have you, and how do I come to a better definition of how this fits, if it does, and what role it plays and how do you not break it a secret and you bring it out in the open.

Dr. Corey Allan: Because that’s the one thing that jumps out to me is she talks about this idea of it’s tainted or weaponized. And that’s where I hear some of the couples that have said there’s been an edict of absolutely not. You cannot do that. Right? That No more. You can’t. There’s no masturbation allowed. Because that’s a weaponization of it.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: Or the flip side is I’ll go masturbate and deny you.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: And that can be on either side.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: Because we had a show just recently of a wife, the husband knew, was regularly participating in masturbation for release and stress.

Pam: Yeah. Right there in bed. With him there, thinking he’s asleep.

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: I love the points of just being able to recognize that I’ve got to redirect this and what this means in my marriage, and really what does this mean to me? Because what jumps out to me, and this is the bigger picture question to me, Pam, tell me how this lands as you hear it.

Pam: Okay. Sure.

Dr. Corey Allan: What jumps out to me is, ultimately, one of the markers of growing up and maturing in relationships and sexually is I want for my spouse what they want for themselves. Right?

Pam: Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Corey Allan: And so how do I get to where I can redirect the concept of I want my spouse to find pleasure in their sexuality, in their sex life. I want them to share and experience that with me, but I also want them to find pleasure. Right?

Pam: Right. Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And so how do I start to see when I can let go of the reigns, if you will, I give them freedom to see where they choose to direct it?

Pam: Okay.

Dr. Corey Allan: And I think that’s the risky part, possibly, because the betrayal and the hurt from the past has been, “Well, you’ve directed it elsewhere.” Rather than how do you steer it to me?

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: How do you make sure I’m a part of this? That it’s more engaging possibly.

Pam: Right? Right. Well, you’ve got this lack of control. If you’re still in the early stages of this and maybe you’ve got a trust issue, then that makes that piece such a struggle to try and say, yeah, I want for you what pleasures you.

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: And I enjoy that. And so getting through that is not an easy process.

Dr. Corey Allan: No, it’s not, because you typically take this as a form of betrayal. That we have in our mind this script of sexist designed for marriage, if you were raised in a religious connotation, and so does masturbation fit into sex? I’ve heard several professional talks. I couldn’t even think of the word.

Pam: Speakers?

Dr. Corey Allan: Speakers. No, professional seminars that have been given over the idea of masturbation is part of our sex life. It’s just individual. It’s self sex. Right? And so, it’s a different way to think of it.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And so is that a betrayal or not? Well, that’s going to be according to each person to have to figure out how is it really used? What’s the meaning? What’s the intent? What’s everything else surrounding it? And the more you can start to see, as I’m involved with life and I’m growing, how do I start to look at things that go on as less threatening of me so I can confront them more cleanly?

Pam: And threatening of me seems to be a key phrase here, right? So, as a spouse, well, why am I threatened by my spouse’s sexuality?

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: Right. And all the things that come into play there, all the ways that maybe I feel inadequate or…

Dr. Corey Allan: Which then falls into this mantra that we constantly keep come back to with Sexy Marriage Radio is when I can continue to evolve and confront myself and mature, I can confront the issues of, you know what, if you want to go ahead and do that without me, your loss because I’m a willing participant. You know, it’s almost, I start to enhance myself a little more to where it’s not. I can confront it differently.

Pam: Sure. I still hear that not even as to where she’s going though.

Dr. Corey Allan: Okay.

Pam: Hers is more of I want to be there with you. I want to see where is it that you’re touching that really gets you going, and so I learn even more about you through that.

Dr. Corey Allan: Okay. No, that’s-

Pam: I may be wrong in how I’m hearing her, but-

Dr. Corey Allan: No. That’s good.

Pam: … more of the how can I-

Dr. Corey Allan: And that’s a redirect, redirecting of it.

Pam: … that she even said it, and join you in that self-touch.

Dr. Corey Allan: Yep.

Pam: And seeing if, I think her words were “am I strong enough to overcome it?” Right?

Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam: Do I have what it takes to overcome-

Dr. Corey Allan: Real-time testing of self?

Pam: … the old stigma that I had that maybe this is something that comes into our walk together. That’s what she’s asking. This goes back to an episode a few weeks back. Right?

Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam: Where I threw out my initial history and response. Right?

Dr. Corey Allan: Right.

Pam: But she’s got this great phraseology of how to bring that together by a truly grown up person.

Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam: To bring the two together in this aspect.

Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah. Well done on calling in with this because that’s a message that I think gives hope, shows what can be and also acknowledges what’s real.

Pam: Right.

Dr. Corey Allan: As far as the pain and the struggle is absolutely real. So depending on where you are in this, in your own life, and in your own marriage, this is a taste of what could be.

Pam: Yeah. And back up and listen to those questions again and see where maybe you are kind of on her litmus test of how her process has worked. If that’s where you want to go, follow that lead.

Dr. Corey Allan: I love when the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation steps in to help the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation. One of the things I absolutely love is the fact that the Sexy Marriage Radio Nation is into it with each in a sense of I want to help other people.

Pam: Yeah. We have a lot of that going on. We appreciate that.

Dr. Corey Allan: My journey is not an isolated event. Other people have it too. And so what I’ve learned, I can impart to others. And so, we want to make a call to anyone out there at Sexy Marriage Radio Nation, if you’ve got something that you think is going to help someone else, (214) 702-9565 because when you’re better our community and the nation’s better.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. Corey Allan: And then we are better.

Pam: That’s right.

Dr. Corey Allan: All of us. So this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. Thanks for taking some time out of your day to spend it with us. We’ll see you next time.