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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

The Change Triangle #481

On the Regular version of today’s show …

Today Hilary Jacobs Hendel joins me to talk about her book It’s Not Always Depression, and the Change Triangle. 

You can learn more about Hilary on her site

On the Xtended version …

We continue the conversation with Hilary Jacobs Hendel and move into how the Change Triangle plays out in sex.  

Enjoy the show!

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Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Welcome to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where we're having straightforward, honest conversations about what goes on in married life behind closed doors, out in the open.

Pam Allan: We're bringing it out in the open, I guess. Right?

Corey Allan: Well, but marriage happens out in the open.

Pam Allan: It does.

Corey Allan: This isn't a show just about sex, because if you listen, this is one of the things that-

Pam Allan: But the fights and the conversations are behind closed doors sometimes too.

Corey Allan: True that. But this is one of those things that I've got a member of the mastermind group, shout out to him, that he made the comment with some of the clients he works with because he's a psychologist along in the field with me. And he tells his clients to listen. He sends them here regularly, which is thanks for that. But he tells them, "I want you to listen to several episodes because it's a show about sex, but as you start to listen to it, you'll realize it's not a show about sex. It's a show about how you do life."

Pam Allan: Exactly.

Corey Allan: And how you're better, and that's marriage out in the open.

Pam Allan: Exactly.

Corey Allan: Because that's what we're all trying to be is better. And so here at Sexy Marriage Radio, the way we get better is through the help of the SMR Nation. And they email us, they call in with their questions, their thoughts, their topics that they want us to cover, their praise, their criticisms. We want it all. And you can call us at 214-702-9565 and leave a voicemail on the voicemail line. Or send us an email to, where the inbox is constantly dinging with thoughts and information that people are looking for to help their sex life and their specific situations in marriage because that's what we want to do.

Pam Allan: We do.

Corey Allan: And then we also ask the SMR Nation to jump out there onto iTunes, or Google Play, or however you listen, and rate and review, leave a comment, spread the word that Sexy Marriage Radio has got it going on.

Pam Allan: They do. The nation, I'm telling you, the people.

Corey Allan: And the reason Sexy Marriage Radio's got it going on is because of the SMR Nation.

Pam Allan: That's right.

Corey Allan: Because it's growing and it's vibrant and it's engaged. And we want that just to continue on into towards the end of 2020 and then beyond. And if you're looking for a way to add a little spice, or spark, or fun, or flirty to your marriage, we're going to encourage you to go to, U-S, and download the app that we just talked about last week.

Pam Allan: Yeah. I'd love to hear responses from people of what they're finding on it, so let us know.

Corey Allan: Intimately Us, find it in your app store. It's a way to add a little spice to your marriage and increase the intimacy and the connection that can go on. So coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is a conversation I had with a psychologist named Hilary Jacobs Hendel, that she is in the field, and she has this concept that she's really latched onto. It's been out there for a while, but she's really honing in on it, called the change triangle. And it's really: How do we deal with our emotions and the whole dynamic of our body better, rather than immediately going to I've got to just shut it down and not feel anything? Because there's a lot of emotions that we do this with. Isn't there?

Pam Allan: Yeah, absolutely.

Corey Allan: You start to feel a little anger, and so you either explode with it or you try to get away with it, get away from it as fast as you can.

Pam Allan: It's a ticking time bomb, potentially. Right?

Corey Allan: Right. And so her whole philosophy is a way to kind of just get to the deeper core of ourselves, and then in turn have a deeper connection because most feelings that we have, not only are they neutral in and of themselves because we apply the judgment to them, there's also multiple things in there too. I could be feeling anger, but also built in there could be sadness. Or I could feel anger, and built in there is also arousal. There's a lot of different things that can happen that's going on at the same time. And so her work is about helping people just channel that and funnel it to just be better and be more engaged in a deeper meaningful existence with the people around you.

Pam Allan: That's going to be great.

Corey Allan: And then coming up on the extended content of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer, and there's no ads, you can subscribe at I continue the conversation with Hilary. And we're talking about just listening to the body, and how this thing came about with the change triangle, we get into the deeper kind of the psychology of it, some of the theory of it, and trying to just go even further on: How does this apply? How do we really enhance this concept?

Pam Allan: Well, because that's what we need with anything. Right? We can talk high level all day, but-

Corey Allan: Theory is theory.

Pam Allan: Yeah, until you figure out how to apply it.

Corey Allan: Application matters, and so that's where we go in the extended today.

Pam Allan: Nice.

Corey Allan: So all that's coming up on today's show. Joining me for this episode of Sexy Marriage Radio is a newfound friend and colleague, Hilary Jacobs Hendel. And I just want to jump right in with you, Hilary, just because I think what you have ... I mean, you have a book out that It's Not Always Depression, which I love that kind of concept of any time we can do a counterintuitive, anti kind of a flair to something that's kind of more mainstream and like, "But what if it's this?" I like those people just because we want to think a little differently because that's usually what shocks us into, "Hey, what about?" And maybe we start to get curious then and go a different route. But I'm curious because you, the main thing that it seems like you've landed is this idea of the change triangle.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes.

Corey Allan: I want to just go there. Let's just start kind of higher level, and then we just go down to wherever we go with it.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Okay. Sounds great. Well, the change triangle is really about emotions. And talk about counterintuitive. We are taught in our society, in our schools, in our families, everything that is opposite that I am, or that I used to be, I think the zeitgeist is changing, but the counterintuitive part about emotions, which is to lean into them, which is to lean into the physical sensations that our emotions produce. And the sort of ah-ha moment for me was, oh, my gosh, emotions are physical. Yes. But we know that, we experience that.
So the change triangle is something that I didn't invent. I learned it in 2004 when I went to an academic conference on emotions and trauma and attachment relationships. And I saw this triangle, and I was immediately organized. My mind was organized in a new way that made so much sense and that made sense of my anxiety, and it made sense of my feelings. And it was so profound for me, excuse me, that I went on to study the method that this triangle was part of as I was becoming a psychotherapist.
And then to make a long story short, I was sharing this triangle with my friends and my family because I was like, "You got to see this." We didn't learn this in high school. Why didn't we ever get this information? Why is it just so isolated to a small group of specialized therapists? And then this sort of pet peeve that none of us get any emotion education has really turned into a moral outrage because we have an epidemic of anxiety and depression, and people don't communicate. They miss each other. They fight. They get defensive. And emotions, as far as I'm concerned, is the key to wellbeing and understanding how to work with them in very particular ways, so that's what the triangle is, a diagram that shows how emotions work in the mind and body. And it's a tool to work in the present moment to move from disconnected states through emotions, which take us to this sort of open hearted, connected, curious, my favorite word that you mentioned, and passionate, our best selves, where we can really be open to hearing other people and hearing ourselves.

Corey Allan: Okay. So let's kind of then go with this idea of, because when we're trying to make this translate to a podcast and the audio of it, because if this was a video, it'd be different. We could have a little visual of this. But we can't paint the picture of what this is, because from my understanding of this, it's a triangle, but it's inverted on the way you would normally think of it. And so walk me through and the SMR Nation of: What are the different points of it?

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Absolutely. First time, I'd say that anybody that is near or a computer or cell phone of any kind that has internet access, if you Google the change triangle, a picture will come up, so you don't have to-

Corey Allan: That makes it even easier. Well done. Yes.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: But for those that are walking around and they don't have that, and they don't want to look at a screen-

Corey Allan: Or they're driving, because I have a lot of people that listen while they're driving, and so I'm always a big advocate of don't try to do other things while you're driving. This is about focusing and just listening, so okay.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. So basically, if you imagine an upside down triangle superimposed on your body, and the point of the triangle is somewhere between your heart, around your stomach area, kind of between your start, in your core. And then the top of the triangle, let's just imagine it as kind of sitting above your shoulders. And at the very simplest, when we have emotions, we intuitively in our culture move away from them, we go up into our head, so that we're moving up the triangle, and now we're kind of sitting in our heads and more anxious because when the head starts going, we kind of get churning in our thoughts and ruminations and whatnot, particularly when we're having a difficult emotional moment. And so let's just imagine. Let me go through the three corners of the triangle.

Corey Allan: Thank you. Yeah. Perfect.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: So it all begins with these things called core emotions. These are specialty categories of emotions that really Charles Darwin wrote about in the turn of the century, and William James, these were people who were writing about emotions and observations. And since then, many other people have studied emotions. And for lack of a better word, we could call them the selfish emotions, even though I don't like that word, they're all about what's best for us.

Corey Allan: I get it.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Good job.

Corey Allan: But you're talking to somebody that believes selfishness gets a bad rap.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: I agree. We can call them self interest.

Corey Allan: Yep. That'll work.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: They're survival emotions. They're what evolved from mammals for hundreds of thousands of years to make sure that whatever's going on in the environment, we notice it, it registers, and we can move. And so core emotions are there to react quickly. Men and women and every gender in between have the exact same core emotions. The other ah-ha moment, I know I wasn't taught this, I thought I was supposed to control my core emotions. They are, let me just say so no one's in suspense, the core emotions are anger and sadness and fear and disgust, and joy, excitement and sexual excitement. And there are many other emotions, and there's many other words for emotions, but I use these on the change triangle because they're the most practical ones to get to know how to work with. They make sense to work with, and when we're with them, we can do a lot of good things with them.

Corey Allan: And it's all something I think every one of us can identify. If you've listened to Sexy Marriage Radio for any length of time, you've heard us talk about how marriages have struggles. Life has struggles. But you're not alone. If something's interfering with your wellbeing or preventing you from achieving your goals, help is available. I've had the help of a great therapist at several different points in my life, and I would not be experiencing the life, marriage, or family I have today without them. This is where our sponsor, Better Help, comes into play for you.
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Here's been my experience, Hilary, is that we take some of these different core emotions that you're describing here. And we even consolidate those down into just a few smaller lists, because anger's a covering emotion in a lot of ways, but there's also a little bit of stuff in there that it's like maybe it's not anger. Maybe it is sadness. Maybe it's fear. And so I love how it can expand into these are things that I think everybody can identify with in some way of their life because they can look at it and go, "Yep. I've experienced that. I remember that. That was actually just yesterday," or whatever it might be. That's the stuff that we all encounter.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Absolutely. And if we're lucky, we encounter it. There are some people, because right from the get go when we're born, we're socialized.

Corey Allan: That's fair.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: And we're taught what emotions are okay for our mother and father. Anger's a really tough one for a lot of families, particularly we could start to think in terms of women are largely socialized to think it's not nice to be an angry woman. It's not nice to have anger. And men are pretty much socialized out of having the tender emotions like sadness and fear. And so we can get into how that affects depression and anxiety because it's all related to how we're socialized. But suffice it to say, the point of the triangle is in the body because these core emotions are body based programs, meaning their whole point when they're triggered, let's use an example. Maybe we can use an example from a relationship. Let's say my husband calls me a name. He gets angry and he says, "You're such a big dummy." Right?
That is going to trigger in my brain probably, depending on who I am and depending on how I'm wired, probably some combination of anger and sadness, maybe shame, whatever. But let's just say it provokes anger inside the middle of my brain. It's not under conscious control. Before I even know that I'm angry, the limbic system, as you probably know, is going to connect with my lower brain, which is going to connect with the vagus nerve. It's going to activate virtually every organ in my body to get me ready for a big old fight.

Corey Allan: Yep. Totally.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. And so the word emotion even comes from movement, so emotions are there to make us move. And that action is meant by through again, evolution, or whatever you want to call it, some adaptation to keep us safe and to defend ourself. So if you're socialized to block anger, so now I'm maybe 30 years old, and I was raised in a family where we just don't do anger. And so I learned early on to suppress my anger. What I'm going to do every time somebody makes me angry is I'm going to squash down that core emotion of anger. And I'm calling it a core emotion. It can also be defensive. But I'm calling it, we're using the example now of core emotion because so many couples struggle with anger. And I'm going to go up the triangle, and I'm going to experience one of my inhibitory emotions.
And so the upper right hand corner of the triangle has a second category of emotions that are designed to keep us connected to people we care about, and who we really need to keep us safe when we're young. And the inhibitory emotions are shame and guilt and anxiety. And they are very good at covering up our emotions and making us stop having our emotions. So if I was taught that anger is bad, I may feel now ashamed every time I feel angry. I'll lose access to my anger. I'll be on the top of the triangle. And so then if you imagine being socialized in a culture where emotions are considered weak and emotions are considered, you're supposed to control your emotions, even though scientifically, that is not possible. We can only control how we handle them once they're triggered.
Then I'm going to be swirling in my body. I'm going to have a bunch of core emotions that are stuck there from childhood and everything else. I'm going to have a bunch of inhibitory emotions that are trying to keep them down, and that feels so awful inside that I'm going to move to the top left corner, the top left hand corner of the triangle, which is defenses. And in the way that I work in AEDP, defenses are not bad things. Defenses are conceived as the best protection we could offer ourselves in the face of overwhelming emotions with too much unwanted aloneness. And therefore, the mind can create ways to keep us, to spare us the pain of emotions, which hurt physically and mentally.
And so we're constantly rotating around this triangle from defenses, to inhibitory emotions, to core emotions, throughout the day and throughout our lives. And at any given moment, we can say, "Oh, I'm in a defensive state. I'm in an anxious, or shame state, or guilty state. Or I'm having a core emotion." Then there's one more place that's important, and then I'm going to hand it back to you, Corey.

Corey Allan: This is good.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Under the triangle, below the point, is this state that we're all trying to spend more time in. That is, again, in the change triangle, I took out the jargon because this is a public health tool that I think everybody should learn in high school, and that state is called the open hearted state of the authentic self. And in that state, it's characterized by all these C words like calm. We all want to feel calm in our mind and body. We want to feel connected to ourselves and nature and other people. We want to feel kindly and compassionate towards ourself and others. I think most people, maybe not everybody.

Corey Allan: Right.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: We want to be courageous to handle what life brings us, to say, "Okay. This one was tough. I fell down. I failed. But I can dust myself off and go back out in the world." And we want to feel confident. We want to be curious. So all these C words. And the ticket to spending more time there, not every moment of every day, that's impossible because life happens and life is hard, is through the core emotions, so that when something in the environment, which we pick up through our five senses, triggers a core emotion, we're at a crossroads. We can move away from it, and then that takes us up the triangle. Or we can lean into it, which is what I teach people to do, to go through the emotion, learn from what it's telling us, process it, release the energy that all emotions have, and then the body calms down we feel good about ourselves. We haven't blocked off or disavowed part of ourselves that are key. And that's pretty much the change triangle. It's how to work with emotions to get to better places.

Corey Allan: Okay. So some of this falls into the phrase of I have to feel it to heal it, or experience it, which is a little counter to the way a lot of people live in the sense that if I'm in something that's going on, and it's one of the negative emotions, because it is. This is the interesting thing to me too about the whole world of emotions. A rational human being, and it's interesting I'm using the word rational because I'm bringing a brain into an emotion thing, which okay, that aside for a second.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: We'll weed through that.

Corey Allan: Yeah. That aside for a second. But a rational human being, I want to feel those really good core emotions, but not the bad ones. And my experience is we don't get a choice. If I'm going to feel one, I'm going to feel the other because that's part of the human existence. Isn't it?

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. Yes, that if we start to block experiences, we block all experiences because often, feelings come up together. And we can have opposite feelings at the same time.

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes, so you're absolutely right. There's one more kind of caveat that I just, the more I talk about emotions to people, the more that I just want to clarify one thing.

Corey Allan: Perfect.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Again, because of our emotion phobic culture, all that when I start to talk about emotions, people go to, "Well, what kind of a world would it be if we're just wearing our emotions on our sleeves? And we're always then going to be fighting and being mean to each other, or crying." And what I want to just clarify very importantly is that experiencing emotions is a completely internal process that way that I'm talking about it. There's absolutely no action. There's no interpersonal action yet. There's no talking. There's no doing anything. That is the very last step when we bring in our thinking brains. And I'm like you, I love logic and reason. And I love to think.
And then once we understand why we're feeling what we're feeling, and we've leaned into it and listened to what the message is, then we think through. What is the best way to handle this emotion out in the world, so it doesn't hurt my partner, hurt me, do anything destructive? We always want to think, "What is the most constructive way to handle?" Because emotions can be very destructive. And all sorts of terrible things have been done in the name of anger for inaudible.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And all sorts of terrible things can be done in the name of all kinds of the core emotions. Right?

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly.

Corey Allan: Because in the name of love, I can do some things that are like, but that is totally egregious.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That's right. That's exactly. We want to be good people.

Corey Allan: That's the whole goal to me. How do we all be better citizens in amongst the people we live with? Right?

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly.

Corey Allan: I'm hearing this as this is about trying to disrupt the normal pattern in the way I have operated, which some of it is conditioned by my upbringing and my surroundings, because you described the whole: What if you're raised in a family where emotions are just no, you can't show them at all, which therefore, you can take the message because most of us humans, when something's not blatantly talked about, we can assume a negative with it.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes.

Corey Allan: Right? And so if I don't hear, "You know what, it's okay to be sad here," I assume sad is a bad thing. And I've got to then run from it, which is where I move up the chain. But the goal then, from the way you frame this with this triangle, is the goal is to just recognize it, stop myself for a moment, because I think ... Tell me if I ... I'm kind of new to this.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: You're doing great. Yeah.

Corey Allan: I've heard of this philosophy, but not to this depth. So I hear it as the desire to want to run from it is also a natural thing because it's been a survival technique we've been using in my family. And so I'm of the opinion as a family therapist that there's times where, oh, yeah, the things you learn to adapt to your surroundings, those were probably really good in the moment.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: You're raised by an alcoholic father or an abusive, vocal mother, you figure out how to not poke the bear, all those kinds of things become survival mechanisms.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Absolutely. And kids-

Corey Allan: Then you carry that forward and it doesn't work anymore. And so you're describing I need to recognize it and then feel it, lean into that, because a lot of people in the SMR Nation, myself included, some of those will freak us out. I'm actually going to feel sadness, no, I don't really want to. That's not a good one to do. But that's the path to then getting in touch with the deeper core of me.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That's exactly right. Now what I will say is the way we're saying it, it's just like you're saying. That sounds so simple. Just lean into my emotions. No, that is terrifying.

Corey Allan: Yes, it is.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Terrifying. And one of the reasons that I started writing, I was never a writer until I actually had something that I felt so compelled to say. And the reason that I wrote the book is because for me personally, everything that I read in becoming a psychotherapist, gave me, it demystified emotions. And I was raised by a psychiatrist, I was raised by a shrink. We were up in our head. We didn't do emotions. I was stiff upper lip, and really was valued for sort of my strength. What I think people need emotion education before they can decide whether they're going to lean into their emotions.

Corey Allan: Good point.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: And not only, and because the big problem with emotions is you can't think your way through an emotion. You have to experience it. How do you have an experience of an emotion so that you can learn that you're okay experiencing emotion? And so in the book, and I'm not mentioning the book to hawk my wares, I really want to explain-

Corey Allan: No, you're great.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That what I try to do, I wrote seven stories from my practice to show people exactly what is close to having an experience of your own, a vicarious experience, of what it means to actually dip into, to feel a sensation in your body, to stay with that sensation as you breathe with it and through it, and what happens next, and how you get there, so that a person would have, one, an education to understand emotions, know a little bit of the science of why this makes sense, then have a story as though you were a fly on the wall in my inaudible, and then a gentle exercise to try to dip your toe in the water. And through that process, again and again, and becoming more curious and seeing, oh, I didn't die from this because I can't tell you how men in particular, particularly in my practice, who were socialized not to have any feelings.
I help them come to a feeling, even if it's a positive feeling like experiencing joy, or experiencing excitement, or experiencing sadness. And we do it, and an emotion really doesn't last more than, a pure core emotion, a couple minutes. And you're like, "Oh my God. I feel so much better. I thought I was going to die. I don't know why I thought that was so scary." But anything that's taboo, we think, "Oh my God. I won't be able to handle it." Plus, we were young when these things were blocked, so those feelings were much more intense than now that we have developed brains, we modify our emotions and we can handle them.

Corey Allan: Right. I love it. And so before we kind of close this part out of the show with you, Hilary, you made the comment of-

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: We didn't even get to sex.

Corey Allan: Well, but see, here you go because you're teeing it up perfectly for me because you made the comment of I'm honestly not trying to hawk my wares with this, and I get it. But I'm going to blatantly say I'm hawking my wares of the extended content because that's where we're going to go next. But I do want to let everybody else in the SMR Nation. How do they find you? And I'll put all this in the show notes too, but I want them to tell people how they can find more of you and this work.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Thank you so much. So as I said, my bread and butter is my psychotherapy practice, which is wonderful. And the writing about emotions and the creating resources about emotions is really more like a hobby. I have a warehouse of free resources that I create on my website, which is You can Google the change triangle, you can Google Hilary Hendel. You'll get to it. And I have a change triangle YouTube channel, where we can go through certain experiential exercises and you can see me talking and explaining the change triangle ad nauseam.

Corey Allan: That's fantastic.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That's my singular mission, is that one day this will be basic education in high school. And then I would welcome people to stay connected. I have a blog. And then you can give me your email address, and you get a new article once a month. And I don't spam and I don't sell anything. I really just want to help people understand emotions and get rid of the myths, all the myths and the incorrect information about emotions. And you don't even have to feel an emotion, but do learn about it.

Corey Allan: Perfect.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: So you'll have a choice.

Corey Allan: That's perfect because this is one of those things, one of the fundamental truisms of life is the things that I'm not aware of that are controlling me, when I can become more aware of them, and then have the tools to actually experience them because that's the difference, is it's experiencing them. It's not managing them because that's the thing I teach and believe in the idea of we don't manage emotions. We've got to experience them and tolerate them because the key through them is where we find healing and we find vibrancy and we find depth. And so that's exactly what you're doing, and I love every minute of it.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. And people, just when they experience emotions, even though emotions can be painful, even joy can be painful when you're really in your body with it, you feel better at the end because people feel more connected to themselves.

Corey Allan: Exactly.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: It reaps a lot of benefits.

Corey Allan: Totally. Well, Hilary, thanks so much for the time thus far.

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Great.

Corey Allan: And I can't wait until where we're heading next. All right?

Hilary Jacobs Hendel: All right.

Corey Allan: Who knew the power of a triangle?

Pam Allan: Well, valid question. I'm not even sure how to respond to that. But thank you, Hilary, for being here with us today.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. I love it when I can stump my wife.

Pam Allan: Yeah, I got nothing on that one.

Corey Allan: But it is fascinating to me that if you look at all across the landscape in the mental health field, there are so many good theories that can really help that are applicable and practical for people. And sometimes it's just-

Pam Allan: And for pretty much everyone, it's not like it's a small segment of people.

Corey Allan: Right. Yeah.

Pam Allan: It's pretty much across the board.

Corey Allan: Because, I mean, today's day and age, what we're living in is full of emotions and anxieties and different things that you're going to have with what's going on in the world, and uncertainty, and school starting up again, and everything that's happening. So how do we just level ourselves, center ourselves, and have a deeper connection with people? Because I think that's what sees us through this whole thing.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And so what we want with the SMR Nation is a deeper connection. And the way we get that is you let us know what's going on. So if there's something you want more of, or was undone from this conversation, 214-702-9565 is how you can let us know. So wherever you are, whatever you've been doing, thanks again for taking some time out of your week to spend it with us. See you next time.