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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

You Need A Tribe | Chandler and Jade Rogers #626

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On the Regular Version …

Chandler and Jade Rogers join the show today as they share their story of pornography struggle, its impact on their relationship and their journey towards healing.

Check out the app Chandler created to help others on this journey as well – Relay

On the Xtended Version …

Pam and I share our story and journey with the struggle and impact of pornography on our marriage and life.

Enjoy the show!

Sponsors …

Join Relay: Learn more about the pornography recovery group program Chandler created, the Relay app:

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Corey Allan: Today it's a privilege to be joined by Chandler and Jade Rogers, who I love the story, just a little bit I know of you guys already. I love the story of how we go through life, we have some sort of issue that is common to a lot of people, or for sure uniquely common to some, and to you and I. I'll

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: kind of own that as well. And then, but yet you, you go beyond just, I'm going to try to tackle this problem. I'm going to actually tackle this problem and bring other people along on the journey with me because of, you know, that's that, that's that mantra of what one person could do, another person can do. And so it's great when we can do these things together. So welcome to the show guys. It's great to meet you.

Chandler & Jd: Thanks so much, Corey. Thank you. Good to meet you.

Corey Allan: So let's just jump right in. Um, I'm, we would talk about this a little bit at the beginning. That's when Pam and I were doing the show. to prep this, but tell everybody a little bit about you guys and your story and where you are.

Chandler & Jd: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess to introduce us as a couple first, uh, Jade and I had been married, let's see, almost four years now. We met while we were at college and, uh, I guess something about both of us, we grew up both moving around a lot. We never lived in anywhere more than a few years. Her family was military. My dad just didn't like staying at the same job more than a few years.

Corey Allan: OK. OK.

Chandler & Jd: And, uh, we were both the oldest. And I think one piece of my story that leads into, yes, The themes that we'll talk about today started when I was in high school and I was first exposed to pornography. And I grew up in a household that was pretty religious and my parents were very overt about their values and trying to instill those values in us. And I think for the most part, like growing up, I had this desire to be a good person, to succeed in school and sports and my faith and whatever else was important to me. And... I remember when I was first exposed to pornography and even masturbation, just as a teenager, my body's changing. Instagram was just becoming a thing at the time and social media. I just didn't really understand, I think, what was happening. It wasn't like I was going out and seeking it at the time, but I think my early journey with pornography just was a factor of being young and not really understanding what was being thrown at me through technology.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Chandler & Jd: about a year after I was first exposed, I think I had this wake up moment where I realized, I think that these behaviors I'm engaged in, I don't feel like I have control over them anymore. It had become compulsive and I had made some attempts that I don't like how this is affecting my relationships around me. I just feel a little bit more depressed or anxious. I don't want this in my life. But as time went on... I felt like less and less control and I wasn't able to stop.

Corey Allan: So is this the classic, I recognize this is something that's not good, so therefore I'm just gonna white knuckle it, here we go, I'm rededicating, I'm down, I'm going, here we go again,

Chandler & Jd: It's a

Corey Allan: only

Chandler & Jd: cycle.

Corey Allan: to fall right

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: back

Chandler & Jd: It's like,

Corey Allan: into it. Yep.

Chandler & Jd: I can try harder, you know, when I try hard, I can, I can get that. A I can, you know, perform at track or cross country. I was running a lot at the time. This was the first time for me that I. Like tried super hard and it didn't work. And I think that had a huge impact on my self-confidence and the narrative that was going through my head

Corey Allan: OK.

Chandler & Jd: about, you know, I'm a failure because I'm, I think it was even less about. you know, feeling like it was going against my value system and more about why can I not do what I say I'm going to do? Why is willpower not enough right now? Am I just weak? I think that was really hard. That was a big theme in the beginning of our relationship too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about it like this was still, you know, 16, 17 year old me who was, you know, I talked to hundreds of people who have had similar stories and most of them, it's not 16, 17 where they're starting to... change things, it's 10 years into the marriage or something. I feel pretty fortunate on one hand that I did try to figure out how to navigate healing in a way and work through some of these cognitive beliefs early on. But as Jay just mentioned, it wasn't a fast turnaround or a fast journey by any stretch.

Corey Allan: Yeah, it's an all too common path. And it's also one that it seems like when you're introduced to it early, like I had the belief of, well, marriage will solve it,

Chandler & Jd: Yeah,

Corey Allan: right.

Chandler & Jd: yeah.

Corey Allan: Cause

Chandler & Jd: He

Corey Allan: I can

Chandler & Jd: totally

Corey Allan: actually

Chandler & Jd: thought that.

Corey Allan: participate in it. Therefore it'll go away, right. It's going to be easy then. And no, it doesn't work

Chandler & Jd: Not

Corey Allan: out that way either.

Chandler & Jd: true. Yeah, totally. So I think one of the important parts of my story in getting help was essentially stumbling upon a local group that was especially for young adults that were trying to work through unwanted pornography habits and essentially just managed to have healthier sexuality. And I remember like the idea of talking to people about it, like anyone else who's dealt with anything hard. or this topic in particular, talking to other people does not sound fun. I wasn't thrilled at the idea, but I remember going to that first group, it was over Zoom, and meeting with seven or eight other guys. It was led by a clinician. And I just remember seeing as they were kind of sharing their stories and we were getting to know each other, like the thought came to my mind, wow, these guys are pretty normal and cool. And they have goals and aspirations like I do. You know, I wouldn't walk around. see, like thinking these people are pedophiles or, you know, anything crazy

Corey Allan: Right.

Chandler & Jd: like that. And I think that was a start in me changing the narrative of how I saw myself and realizing that, you know, just because I'm, uh, you know, engaging in a behavior that I feel like I can't control that goes against my ideal value system doesn't mean that I'm a failure. It doesn't need to define my overall success that I'm having in my life or how I see myself. And that was a lesson again, that You know, I'm still learning. It's kind of come gradually. There was kind of another wave that I think Jade, you should share about our story when we met later. But that was kind of the early inception of realizing that doing this with other people, not doing it alone actually helped me break some of those patterns that were keeping me stuck.

Corey Allan: Okay, well then let's jump to the two of your story and how

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Jade fits into this.

Chandler & Jd: That's where, that's where she does a much better job than me. Well, um, yeah, we met in college, like we said, and we, our relationship progressed really quickly. Um, we met really quickly after that we started dating and then one day it was like not that long into our relationship, I accidentally, yeah, three weeks into our relationship. I accidentally like blurred it out that I loved him. And he was like, Oh, well, before we like progress our relationship further, let me talk to you about something. Um, and that's when he asked me if I had ever known anybody that struggled with pornography, um, or masturbation. And I was like, um, do I now know someone? And I guess he proceeded to kind of explain to me kind of his experience, um, working on this. challenge that he has gone through for so many years. He asked me to not interrupt him, not ask any questions till the end, which was actually good, because then I got to really hear the whole story and really hear how he thought about it, all the things that he's done to overcome it. And I will say that like, it did shift my view of him, because I wasn't really sure how to wrap my head around that. It kind of felt like. I guess I was trying to figure out like how could someone so good that I was so That I liked so much that I like saw these amazing qualities and how could he struggle with something that? to me felt like was hurtful or Bad quote unquote and yeah, that was just how I was thinking at the time When I think one piece of that was like Jade mentioned I didn't just like blurt out you know, and drop this on her and let her process it, I kind of had the thought like, I want to share with her a little bit more through like a story driven lens and show her the ways in which I've been growing throughout this process. And I think at the time, I was, you know, still learning that it was way more than just about pornography was actually a lot about me developing a better relationship with myself and understanding, you know, what healing means and how it applies.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: to a lot of different things, not just this. And trying to show her that there was effort and there was things that I was learning, even though I hadn't solved it all the way. And she was hurt by it, that didn't change that. Yeah, or at least I just didn't know how to think about it. I didn't know what to do with the information, how it would affect our relationship or affect how I viewed him.

Corey Allan: Right, which typically the things we don't completely comprehend, we run from, avoid, fill in a blank, if

Chandler & Jd: Yeah,

Corey Allan: you will, and just

Chandler & Jd: and

Corey Allan: label

Chandler & Jd: I

Corey Allan: it in a certain way.

Chandler & Jd: Right exactly so I at the moment like in the moment, I think I remember feeling a little bit like a little bit like I wanted to run, but at the same time, I knew what I saw in him. I knew that he was a good person. I knew that he had all of these different qualities that I loved and that I was super excited for and that I wanted in a husband one day. And so I guess that confusion that like question mark right there made me stay made me like want to figure it out. Like, how do I think about this? Like, there's this discrepancy here. How to reconcile the discrepancy. Yeah, and so I guess like the next few days, I remember I had like a final exam or something and I couldn't focus because I was just thinking about this and trying to figure out what to do with this new information that I knew about Chandler. And so I'm very religious, so I prayed and I was just trying to write down my thoughts and I was just asking God to help me see this differently, see this the way that he saw it. I'm like, I'm sure, God, you understand this better than I do. I'm sure, like, I'm looking at this from one angle, and I can't see the full picture. I know I can't, because there's this discrepancy. There's this, like, I need to reconcile these two pieces together, and I'm sure God knows a way to do that. So I was, I was, like, writing down all my thoughts. I remember just, like, feeling, like, suddenly getting this clarity that the challenge that Chandler was going through and challenges that we all go through, It's a type of investment in who we can become and who we're meant to be. If we didn't have these hard things, we'd never develop the qualities that come with working on

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: these hard things, right? And I realized that all of the things I loved about Chandler, his empathy, his strength, his diligence, his patience, all those things came from this challenge that he has been working on for so many years. And like, I really feel like from that moment on, It was kind of a miracle to me. From that moment on, I was just really confident in my ability to be in that relationship with him and to help walk with him through this journey. I felt honored in a way because I knew that he was gonna become such an amazing person because of this, because he was working so hard on this. And I really loved, it's almost like I was able to see his potential. And I was falling in love with that potential as well. Well, thanks.

Corey Allan: That's really strong, Jade. I mean, that's one of those to at least be able to have the courage to step back and re-examine and evaluate and then decide in some ways. And it's not like it's a blind decision either at that point. Cause that's one of the things that's always fascinating to me about marriage because I've come across all these different statements or phrases that, if you go anywhere in social media, you'll hear these different. that thoughts that are thrown out there that are, they're, they're factual and they're true, but they're incredibly difficult to do. Right. And, but yet we all fall victim to it. Cause one of my favorite ones that I've heard is the statement of, if I tolerated my friends talking to the me, the way I talk to myself, we would not be friends.

Chandler & Jd: Yeah, totally.

Corey Allan: Right. And so it's just. but it's so easy to see somebody else's struggle or pain or bad judgment and just cast all kinds of stones at them, not recognizing, wait, wait, wait, wait, I probably do something similar. It's not in the same way, manifest itself some way else. I mean, because it's two fallen people. It's two broken people even.

Chandler & Jd: Right.

Corey Allan: And the hope would be our brokenness makes enough sense. We both can be better,

Chandler & Jd: Right.

Corey Allan: if you will, right?

Chandler & Jd: Yeah, I feel like that was a big theme in our relationship. And it still is honestly, like he has his problems, I have mine. And I don't see one problem as worse than the other. I think we both struggle in so many ways. And we need to be there for each other. And we can both hurt each other, and still be there for each other, you know. And I think realizing that a lot of I think where we can drive satisfaction and joy in this life, especially in a marriage. Um, I think we've had a lot of these experiences in the first few years of our marriage is embracing these difficult aspects that we might be struggling with internally ourselves or that our spouse is struggling with and really trying to develop the skills to not run, to not like fight them away, to not pretend they don't exist, to, to be able to, um, confront them with empathy, with, you know, gentleness and curiosity and with persistence because if we want to become better, happier, you know, more, you know, well rounded people, whatever your definition or measuring stick is of how you want to go through life, like, there's going to be any number of obstacles. And I love that Jade has helped me understand that we shouldn't look at one as any any more, you know, bad than another, even if some may be more destructive or difficult than others. if we can choose to have the same type of approach with trials generally, and not freak out just because one feels potentially more threatening to the relationship,

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: I think we're better equipped to manage them in a healthy way.

Corey Allan: Well, that's the insidiousness thing about marriage a lot of ways, that we meet and fall in love with somebody that is going to expose the thing I don't want to have to face in myself.

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right. That is that's just going to happen most of the time in the sense. I mean, my wife has gotten so good at walking away from different things, which would be quote unquote dustups or disappointments or frustrations that happened between us and asking herself, what's this exposing in me? What is this? What is this about? Because it was something that where she was putting too much on the way I was supposed to be, or she hoped I would be. And. How could you not read that? And I do the same thing. I mean, my, my struggle is I will too often not be vocal enough and think she'll just read my mind and the cues. And she is a straight blunt, tell it like it is woman that drives me crazy, but I absolutely love. And the reason it drives me crazy, because it makes me have to be the same

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: in some ways, which I've got to then look at what's going on in me and how this has evolved over time because what you guys are describing is something that's I think all too common. And I love the idea you're stating that we, we hierarchy. Sin when

Chandler & Jd: Yep.

Corey Allan: it's still just sin

Chandler & Jd: Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan: and it's destructive, you know, pornography and betrayal and acting out and all those different things. Yes, they're destructive. So is judgment, you know, being judgmental and selfish and greedy. You know, that's, that's destructive.

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: And if we can look at that, I think you can start to recognize kind of like what you found out in the group. And this is one of the things I found in the groups I run. When you recognize they're just real people, including the leader, i.e. me in the groups I run and they hear my, what real life is for me. In those moments, they're like, Whoa, okay. This is different. They're all just real people. So pivot there. How did, how did that journey you guys have had evolve into the, the technology you've created now and the benefit of it.

Chandler & Jd: Yeah. So I got back involved with groups in college as well over my multi-year journey of having some success, facing some setbacks, learning some things, having more setbacks, make some progress. I tried to continue to make attending groups a thing that was always a part of my healing formula because I noticed that my propensity is to isolate and to try to figure out how to figure things out myself. because I'm someone who, again, I think to myself, I can do this if I just work hard and put more effort forward. And I'm continually humbled and reminded that I can't. And that's good because I actually think that learning through these group experiences, it's taught me that I'm so much better because I involve other people in my process. Even if it's not that I couldn't necessarily have done it without them, it's that My journey was so much more filled with growth and less misery because I had these other people who were in the same boat. And so I guess like how this turned into technology is I, I had spent a lot of time, I guess, like trying to figure out how do I make better use of these other guys that I've now got, you know, saved as contacts in my phone who I see on Thursday nights, um, you know, cause the other six days of the week, um, I'm struggling. or going through something stressful or an urge hits and I'm home alone. I want to be able to be better at reaching out and leveraging this support network that I built. And it felt like every time we were coming back to group, there were people saying like, yeah, Tuesday, the other day, like this happened and

Corey Allan: Yep.

Chandler & Jd: I don't

Corey Allan: That's

Chandler & Jd: know why

Corey Allan: the

Chandler & Jd: I didn't

Corey Allan: common

Chandler & Jd: reach

Corey Allan: recovery

Chandler & Jd: out

Corey Allan: path, right?

Chandler & Jd: exactly. It's like, I don't really know why I didn't reach out. And we're like, dude, like we could have helped. And. or, you know, maybe it wasn't even about a relapse or slip up. It was like, you know, we all commit to journaling for 15 minutes and exercising, whatever it was that we're kind of focused on in the program that week. And, you know, we come back seven days later and half the guys are like, I didn't really do it. And it's like, well, if we had known halfway through the week, because if there was transparency that half of us were doing nothing, you know, maybe there would be some more peer pressure to not just, uh,

Corey Allan: Okay.

Chandler & Jd: the negligent. And so it just got me thinking, like I had become very open about my story and just kind of personally realizing that I really want less people to spend years doing this alone before they realize that that's just not the way to find healing. I want to lead by example and just be open with all of the friendships where I feel comfortable and giving other people an opportunity if they so choose to share with me things that they're going through. And I found like so many of my friends either were currently dealing with the very similar thing or had in the past or struggling with something else. And so I just got thinking a lot about how can I, how can I help people struggle less in isolation to stop fighting alone, to team up more with other people, um, and, and just got this feeling that there's something special about having a support network filled with other people in the same boat, as well as friends and family members who love you. I'll use spouse as an example, Jade doesn't have the same struggles that I do, but she's a part of my support system and we have a very different relationship. But if it were only her and sometimes it has been only her in my support system, it's not good sometimes. It's kind of

Corey Allan: No,

Chandler & Jd: very

Corey Allan: no spouse

Chandler & Jd: tricky.

Corey Allan: is an account. Yeah, no spouse is an accountability partner. That is something I have said for the 11 and a half years of this show of the

Chandler & Jd: And

Corey Allan: podcast.

Chandler & Jd: I would say amen, brother. That is just a very tricky accountability relationship to have. And it is way easier with other people who are in the same boat.

Corey Allan: Yep.

Chandler & Jd: And so it was a school project at the time. We were in our junior year, me and some friends, we're in a coding class. And we were like, you know, what if we built an app that made it easy for people to get mashed in a group of seven or eight other people who are dealing with the same issue, and we were just only focused on people who wanted to overcome unwanted pornography habits at the time. Um, and, and make it easy and not awkward to kind of stay semi

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: anonymous, you know, use your first name if you want, put a real profile picture if you want, but you don't have to show up face to face for a meeting and essentially get a curated group with some basic accountability features to help you be in a better support system and find that easier. And so we started it, launched it as a project initially for this class and quickly realized as we have people downloading it and giving feedback. that people really were finding a lot of value in it.

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: We were getting all sorts of requests for like, what if it did this and what if it did that? And we started working with a lot of therapists that I'd kind of known over the years and their peers, figuring out how could we build a tool that would help people who were already even working with some sort of professional to get help and compliment that with Relay as a tool to give you a more robust support system and infrastructure for accountability. And that's kind of the... the whole how it got started. And then we ultimately decided to continue working on it once we graduated and is now essentially our full-time gig with the goal to grow this platform that helps people find help together to be their best selves.

Corey Allan: Yeah. And, and, and that's the missing piece in a lot of the journeys. I think that people have when they go at it alone or they go at it as a spousal unit is

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: they don't have people. That

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: the, the importance of me, this is, I've told guys, this of all the years I've been in the field, uh, you know, for 20 years of being a therapist now, and I'll have countless over the years come back with just really struggling with pornography. I don't know how to like, Hey, the number one step towards that is walk alongside other people

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: in this journey of your

Chandler & Jd: Yeah,

Corey Allan: gender,

Chandler & Jd: totally.

Corey Allan: you know, hairy led dudes need hairy leg dudes with them. You know, it's just

Chandler & Jd: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: the way it goes. It's just the best way you can do it to recognize one. I'm not a, not alone. I'm not abnormal. And if I find a group that's judgment free in large part, but also in essence demanding more

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: then that's huge

Chandler & Jd: Yeah, I kind of think about it. I just love the principle of working together. Honestly, it's something that I'm working on right now. I don't have the same struggles, but I have other struggles and I'm not very good at asking for help or allowing other people into my journey. And that's something I'm working on a lot. But I have to remind myself that... Like, why else would we be on a planet with other people? Why aren't we on a solo planet with just us? Or why are we in family units? Why do we have parents and siblings? Or

Corey Allan: Right.

Chandler & Jd: why do we get married? Why do we have communities? Why, like, why do we have all these things? It's because we're not designed to progress alone. It's impossible.

Corey Allan: Right.

Chandler & Jd: We can only go so far by ourselves. And you kind of mentioned it earlier, like having a spouse, it basically holds up a mirror to you and shows you all the things that you need to work on. Like that's why we need other people. They help us see our blind spots. They help us, they share their experiences with us that can strengthen our perspectives. And yeah, I just, I really just believe that it doesn't matter what challenges you have or what weaknesses you have in all aspects of your life. The only way to really get where you wanna go is to do it with other people.

Corey Allan: Right. And that's, and I'm glad you're pointing that out, Jay, because what you've, what you've created with relay is more than just a journey for dealing with pornography. It it's a journey for dealing with whatever, with other people who have

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: either the same, the same journey or close enough related that we'll get along and, and lift each other higher. Cause I, I love. But the mastermind groups I run, I think of them as Foxhole mentalities. Um, in the sense that you're with a group of people that you're invested in because one you've ponied up some money to be a part of it and some time

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: to be a part of it, and it's a pretty big commitment to be a part of them. Um, then I know I've got guys in there that are working to do their job. And if I get wounded, quote unquote, they can help me. But if I refuse to do my job, they can't help me. You know, that's the way I think accountability, I think too often, maybe this has been your journey to, uh, guys in the, in the church. A lot of ways accountability is often thought of him the way I was brought up in a lot of ways and experienced was, well, I'm a part of this group. You guys help me now

Chandler & Jd: Yep. Yeah.

Corey Allan: rather

Chandler & Jd: You

Corey Allan: than

Chandler & Jd: helped me.

Corey Allan: I have to have self accountability. And like Jade, you're talking about a courage to say, I need help. I'm lost, I'm broken, I'm struggling, I'm whatever, rather than hoping people will read between the lines

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: and pick up on it.

Chandler & Jd: And even being in a place where other people are there, you know, saying that same thing and giving you a chance, even if you're, you know, feeling just as broken, like you don't have it any more figured out than they do. I think one of the biggest things I've learned through relay that's so powerful is you don't have to be perfect to turn outwards and help support others and

Corey Allan: Mm

Chandler & Jd: that

Corey Allan: hmm.

Chandler & Jd: actually helps you on your own change

Corey Allan: Yep.

Chandler & Jd: journey because I think when I started caring about not only building relay, but in these interactions. I mean, even throughout relay, I would have customers reach out to us and, you know, say like, Hey, could you swap me into a different group? Like, you know, I'm for whatever reason, like wanting to just add a second group or maybe I don't connect as well with these guys or some people left. I would help them out and I would take just a second to text them and let them know like, Hey, I'm the original creator of the app. Just wanted to like, you know, let you know how much it means to me that, you know, I was here before and, and understand this journey. That's why we're doing this and ask them a few questions about. their journey. And I just remember having those interactions, I had started to build friendships with people who are using relay. And it was helping me more throughout this process because I was caring about

Corey Allan: Yep.

Chandler & Jd: more and more people, even though I was still, you know, figuring things out to like, I think connecting. Yeah, like, I think it's, it's the connection. And even if you don't have something crazy, insightful, you know, you don't need to be a trans psychologist to show up for someone and helps

Corey Allan: No,

Chandler & Jd: you.

Corey Allan: and that's, that's where you actually get the deeper connection anyway, is when, when you're vulnerable with the struggle and someone else is vulnerable enough to be, to let that struggle just be. Right?

Chandler & Jd: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Cause Jake, go back to you guys, the beginning of you guys' story as we're wrapping this up. When he, when Chandler unloads, Hey, I want to tell you, tell you my journey. I want a full disclosure here. Uh, it's very easy to, you know, throw a quick solution at it or be blind, rose colored glasses will make it through. We'll figure

Chandler & Jd: I'm

Corey Allan: it out

Chandler & Jd: sorry.

Corey Allan: rather than, okay, wait, how do I create room enough for this real thing?

Chandler & Jd: Hmm.

Corey Allan: And, and turn, I don't have to turn towards it or run towards it. I just kind of create room

Chandler & Jd: And without

Corey Allan: for

Chandler & Jd: feeling

Corey Allan: it.

Chandler & Jd: like I need to change him, I think that's a big part of my development as a wife too. It's like, you wanna fix things or help them, but I think the biggest growth that we can do as spouses is to be able to hold space

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: for the weakness.

Corey Allan: And that's the scariest

Chandler & Jd: I think

Corey Allan: growth

Chandler & Jd: that allows

Corey Allan: there

Chandler & Jd: us to

Corey Allan: is

Chandler & Jd: be

Corey Allan: too,

Chandler & Jd: better supportive.

Corey Allan: right?

Chandler & Jd: Yeah, yeah, Jade has been, you know, I think she took a lot of ownership for even, like she wasn't just like, you figure this out. you know, and I'll give you the space to figure it out. So sure, I did. And that was helpful. You're still you're still a human for sure. It was still hurtful. But I think at her healthiest and a lot of times she's tried to figure out how do I level up my mindset and the

Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.

Chandler & Jd: way that I'm things too, so that I can manage my own healing, you know, given that this hurt her and cause need for healing, as well as support Chandler and his healing.

Corey Allan: Right, and because that's the simultaneous thing I think I need to get out there, at least as we wrap this up, is when there's things that have gone on that are hurtful and destructive in a marriage, one of the things a lot of times, whenever the wounded or the betrayed or the one that's just now being, just discovering. Oftentimes they become the focus of the pain and the struggle. And that takes paramount rather than realizing there's pain on both sides. If it's legit, like, wait, this isn't something I want. This isn't something I've got to still deal with the grief and the struggle and the pain on my side too. And that's, that's, that's the simultaneous thing. That's really complicated for people to allow because Jada would have been very easy. They were like, yeah, you got to just figure that out. What, what do you, and then he's like, yeah, but I'm really struggling. Why are you even struggling about that? That's just ridiculous. Well, I'm kind of sad about how could you be sad about that? Hey, why don't you see what you've done to me? You know, we get in these kinds of things that it just was almost protective mode rather than like you mentioned, create space, save

Chandler & Jd: And I

Corey Allan: space

Chandler & Jd: think,

Corey Allan: for us.

Chandler & Jd: I think our, the times that have brought us closest together through challenges, and I feel like we've had a lot, and it's not always easy. We talk, we talk like we know what we're doing, but yeah, we've gone through a lot of challenges in the past few years and. The moments that were the closest and that have brought us together are the times when Chandler tells me how he's hurt and I tell him how I'm hurt and we're just both hurt together. We're both sad together and it's we create space for both of us to be able to be having a hard time and

Corey Allan: Good.

Chandler & Jd: we don't point our fingers at each other and say, well, you're causing this.

Corey Allan: That's good. So we've alluded to it. How do people find relay?

Chandler & Jd: Yeah. So Relay is available in both the App Store and Play Store for iPhone and Android. If you just search Relay, improve together, it should show up. The website is And then, you know, if anyone wants to reach out personally, like I said, I really value getting to hear people's individual stories and I'm not too busy for that. So if you want to reach out to me directly, my email is Chandler at

Corey Allan: Perfect. Well, guys, thank you so much for what you're doing and how you help people and how you help marriages because it's, it's always so needed. And so it's great finding other people doing the same.

Chandler & Jd: Thanks so much, Corey. You too, man.